Framed for Murder / Duet

[CannonFodder]

If I want to chose the scheme Framed for murder, can I select one corephee and have it still apply once they join into the duet.

I figure the only realistic change of anything killing the duet is a master.

[Q'iq'el]

I'm afraid you can't do that. (at least so it seems RAW, I'm not sure what was the intent)

Check out the wording of Dance Together on your Coryphée card. It tells you to sacrifice your Coryphée to create the Duet. In other words, original model is out of play and Coryphée Duet is an entirely new entity. Even dancing apart doesn't allow you to "bring back" the original Coryphée you noted down for that scheme (as it had been sacrificed and the models created by Dancing Apart are new).

Compare that to Terror Tot Nephilim and Young Nephilim wording - they got replaced, but there's no sacrifice involved, so the new model and the old model remain the same - all the effects and the Schemes involving these models stick.

In case of Coryphée only the wounds get passed to the Duet, I think (because that is specified in the wording of the rule).

On the other hand if your opponent chooses a Scheme like Kidnap, names both Coryphée, and you dance together, you'll automatically give him 1 VP and you make it much easier to get 2 (just one more model left to deal with).

Edited June 5, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[CannonFodder]

Actually the dance together uses both Sacrifice & Replace in the text. And wounds do transfer, so its not 100% new model. which is why I'm asking.

[Q'iq'el]

Actually the dance together uses both Sacrifice & Replace in the text. And wounds do transfer, so its not 100% new model. which is why I'm asking.

A sacrificed model is as good as dead. You can even pop out Bête Noire out of that (a nasty surprise Colette players should watch for).

So no matter the replace, the original Coryphées have left the game and any effect which depended on them being sacrificed goes off (including the Schemes that require a sacrifice or kill of the model). Accordingly Schemes depending on her not being sacrificed fail.

The rules for kill/sacrifice/bury are on page 13 and make it pretty clear.

The passage about wound transfer is merely a reminder, as it is the default behavior for replacement anyway.

Place, Replace and Summon are merely placement effects (page 38) and they do not imply continuity between involved models in any way. The first means a model appears on the table with no extra penalties, the second means the model will inherit wounds and effects and continue the activation, the last involves receiving slow and fresh activation, but not inheriting the effects or wounds.

Regardless of which placement effect is used, it depends on the wording of the specific rule used if the model counts as the same or not.

It is counter-intuitive and I can't fathom why the designer worded it like that, but since the Nephilim example shows clearly there is no need to include sacrifice in the process, I assume it was a deliberate choice.

In fact Coryphée Duet example is the clearer one - I see more potential issues with Terror Tots and Young Nephilim, if someone pressed the issue (I don't think you can tell RAW what happens to the original model there).

Edited June 5, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[Nightjar]

A sacrificed model is as good as dead. You can even pop out Bête Noire out of that (a nasty surprise Colette players should watch for).

I may be mistaken, but I don't think Bete would pop out when a Coryphee Duet is created, as she only shows up when a living or undead model is killed or sacrificed, and the Coryphee are constructs.

Otherwise, I really appreciated your very clear explanation of the difference between Place, Replace, and Summon. I had a question about Place specifically, and this response cleared it up for me. Thanks!

[Q'iq'el]

I may be mistaken, but I don't think Bete would pop out when a Coryphee Duet is created, as she only shows up when a living or undead model is killed or sacrificed, and the Coryphee are constructs.

You are of course right. Haven't played Undead vs. Showgirls yet and it somehow skipped my mind. >.<