Holding the Black Joker in your Hand

[Jonas Albrecht]

Hey guys/gals? If you want to continue the houserule discussion, can you take it to another thread? Thanks!

Sorry about that. I'm finished having a conversation about it.

[Chanst]

I find for me that it really depends on my crew and my intentions for the game, or even specific turns. If I have a Flesh Construct, I will be holding onto it for Fast. If I am using a crew that will be making a lot of positively twisted flips (from Paired or other such abilities), I will hold it because my odds of flipping it in a turn increase dramatically. When playing with Colette, I will keep it to discard for a soulstone just because I am planning on using 2 cards from my hand to do that anyhow. If I am playing my gremlins, it is just another low card in my already reduced hand size, so it goes. If I only have 2 activations this turn, it goes.

I think the point is that there really isn't a 'set in stone' rule about when to keep it or not. It is contextual, like most other decisions in the game.

[LoboStele]

I think I tend to hold onto it more than I ought to, but in general, I do what was mentioned above about holding onto it for 1-2 rounds, but then discarding it right before a significant round. Although lately, playing Levi, I seem to draw it during a round that means absolutely nothing, and then I want to off Levi for some reason, and then end up having to discard the stupid thing back into the pile to be shuffled in. At least with Levi I can use Death's Lessons to work around it.

The other situation I typically hold onto it is whenever I'm playing Ressers. If I'm up against any of them (except Kirai, I guess), I almost always hold onto it, since I know I'm usually going to be attacking things with Hard to Wound 1 or 2, and flipping tons of cards for damage flips.

I HAVE seen it flipped for the Healing Flip on Slow to Die actions though. Rather sad and somewhat hilarious at the same time when it does happen.

In general, I would tend to agree that the house rule regarding the Black Joker is completely unnecessary, and if you're going to do something like that anyways, then it's probably best to just remove the card from the decks altogether and play with out it. (Or remove both the Red and Black Jokers) There's SO much strategy involved in this game, and a large part of it is in resource management regarding your control hand and the cards in the deck. Keeping track of whether either of the Jokers has popped up yet during a round is absolutely essential. Heck, I've cheated down an attack to be tying the defense because I knew I hadn't seen the Red Joker yet, and I only had 3 cards left in my deck. So I wanted to make sure I flipped all 3 of them.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

=

CLICK

[FoeRender]

I have to agree to the whole it all depends on the situation side of things . I hold onto it usually , but if i have a big turn coming where i want to cheat high il ditch it for the extra card .

[micahwc]

No. Never.

Yes. Always.

[micahwc]

We can talk about statistics and percentages all day long, but if it is in your hand you have a 0% chance of drawing it again. I don't play Levi yet, and have no reason to get rid of it. I know there is only a small chance of drawing it at a critical card flip, but I have played enough to see it happen more than I would have liked.

Both jokers have lost and won me games(I'm looking at you Chanst). I like seeing it in my hand because it gives me certainty in a game whose outcome is partly based on fate. My opponents and I are typically well matched, and fate is a big part of the game. There have been games won and lost simply because people drew bad cards at bad times. Holding the black joker minimizes this. It is a personal choice, but my choice is to hold on to it and just play with one less card.

It also helps to psych out opponents. "Maybe he will draw the black joker on this next flip." Sorry, no I wont.

Edited June 2, 2011 by micahwc
personal insults and rivalry with other forum members

[Hansel]

Sorry about that. I'm finished having a conversation about it.

No problem. I did find it a very interesting discussion, just a little out of place

[Uncle]

Seeing as how I play Colette, and only Colette, I will hold on to that sucker for as long as I can possibly manage. The only time it gets discarded is on a critical Decapitation (Colette, Cassie, or the Duet) or when I really, really need another Soulstone (I go through them like candy). Colette tends to need 2-3 healing flips a game to stay around, the way I play her, and the possibility of getting a Black Joker on one of those makes me want to hold onto that card with the grip of death. Plus, with all the positive flips I have going on, I go through my fate deck more often than I care to admit.

[Hookers]

We can talk about statistics and percentages all day long, but if it is in your hand you have a 0% chance of drawing it again.

Both jokers have lost and won me games

0% to draw it and 100% to have a bad card in your hand. you would never keep a 1 or 2 why keep the 0?

you kept a bad card in your hand that prevented you from drawing the 13 of masks that would've won you the game

its not as sexy or memorable to think about it that way, but every card you cheat is way more valuable than the random card you flipped. you can use them whenever and can affect the important duels.

1) the black joker is unlikely to be flipped in any given duel

2) the black joker is even less likely to be flipped in an important duel

3) if you discard it from your hand you are guaranteed to draw a better card AND don't have to worry about it for the upcoming turn

the black joker doesn't lose the game, your mistakes before that lose it. keeping bad cards in your hand is simply another mistake

[Justin]

Never hold?

Care to expand?

Well, I'm a little later now. But I think other people have explained it pretty well.

[Adran]

0% to draw it and 100% to have a bad card in your hand. you would never keep a 1 or 2 why keep the 0?

you kept a bad card in your hand that prevented you from drawing the 13 of masks that would've won you the game

its not as sexy or memorable to think about it that way, but every card you cheat is way more valuable than the random card you flipped. you can use them whenever and can affect the important duels.

1) the black joker is unlikely to be flipped in any given duel

2) the black joker is even less likely to be flipped in an important duel

3) if you discard it from your hand you are guaranteed to draw a better card AND don't have to worry about it for the upcoming turn

the black joker doesn't lose the game, your mistakes before that lose it. keeping bad cards in your hand is simply another mistake

You can't cheat over the black joker. Thats the biggest downside to it.

I've had a turn when I needed Marcus to do well to survive. Was happy as I had the 3 of tomes in hand, so going to get 3 effects from wild heart, right until the card I flipped was the black joker. Completly ruined the plans for the turn I had by not having any of his effects go off.

As you say the important cards are the ones you cheat, and whilst having one less in my hand reduced the chance of me having the right cards to cheat, it does mean I will be able to cheat the cards on those important duels.

That and when using cards to trigger overpower/onslaught/whirlwind/headshot/decapitate and the damage flip is a black joker, meaning the triggers don't happen is bad.

And my worst one was I spent a turn on setting Jack daw up to be killed by my Lucius crew. Was all going to plan until the Black joker came up in one of the damage flips, putting me one attack short of being able to finally kill him.

The times I have ended up not using a good to average card from my hand are much higher than the times the black joker in the deck has cost me something major.

[Cadilon]

You can't cheat over the black joker. Thats the biggest downside to it.

I've had a turn when I needed Marcus to do well to survive. Was happy as I had the 3 of tomes in hand, so going to get 3 effects from wild heart, right until the card I flipped was the black joker. Completly ruined the plans for the turn I had by not having any of his effects go off.

As you say the important cards are the ones you cheat, and whilst having one less in my hand reduced the chance of me having the right cards to cheat, it does mean I will be able to cheat the cards on those important duels.

That and when using cards to trigger overpower/onslaught/whirlwind/headshot/decapitate and the damage flip is a black joker, meaning the triggers don't happen is bad.

And my worst one was I spent a turn on setting Jack daw up to be killed by my Lucius crew. Was all going to plan until the Black joker came up in one of the damage flips, putting me one attack short of being able to finally kill him.

The times I have ended up not using a good to average card from my hand are much higher than the times the black joker in the deck has cost me something major.

I understand what you are saying. Holding the black joker is not a bad strategy. As I am learning from this thread, its essential for some masters. But in your examples, you are understandably remembering and placing great (and undue) weight on those few times when the black joker REALLY screwed you. The way I look at it though, by keeping the black joker you are paying the opportunity cost of having one more card in your hand for many turns.

If the really bad effects of flipping the black joker are over exaggerated, the positive effects of that one extra card in your hard are totally unknown. There is no way to attribute a great flip+twist to taking the extra card instead of the black joker. This skews perception and makes it seem like there is no great cost to keeping the black joker to prevent the few major bad things that stick out in your memory.

I contend that, despite perceptions, the average player with an average master will lose far more flips by giving up a hand card to hold the black joker than by having a full hand of cards each turn.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Cadilon
for typos and clarity

[Adran]

I contend that, despite perceptions, the average player with an average master will lose far more flips by giving up a hand card to hold the black joker than by having a full hand of cards each turn.

I agree I can only give one side of the story, and I don't think there is only one answer. But in a typical 6 turn game, assuming you were dealt the black joker on turn 1 and held it all game (discarding it at the beginning of Turn 6) it has cost you 5 random cards. A fair split is a 13, 10, 7, 4, 1. (Average value of 1 card is 7)

So for Combat I've probably cost me 2 duels over the game, maybe a third.

For spellcasting Its maybe 1 good spell less a game, unless I have a good range of suit requirements. in which case its 2 or 3.

In return, I typically go through 30 cards a turn, so I will see the black joker 3 times a game. So costing me 3 duals a game.

[LoboStele]

I agree I can only give one side of the story, and I don't think there is only one answer. But in a typical 6 turn game, assuming you were dealt the black joker on turn 1 and held it all game (discarding it at the beginning of Turn 6) it has cost you 5 random cards. A fair split is a 13, 10, 7, 4, 1. (Average value of 1 card is 7)

So for Combat I've probably cost me 2 duels over the game, maybe a third.

For spellcasting Its maybe 1 good spell less a game, unless I have a good range of suit requirements. in which case its 2 or 3.

In return, I typically go through 30 cards a turn, so I will see the black joker 3 times a game. So costing me 3 duals a game.

I think this is a great way to look at it, and really comes down to what pieces you're playing too. As mentioned before, if you're running the Showgirls, you really want that Black Joker out of the way, because you don't want it to pop up on a Healing Flip for either Colette or your Coryphee Duet. Also, when I play Colette, I also have a tendency to burn through quite a bit of my hand, what with the Duet using 2 cards for every single Duel, and then things like the Mannequins just burning cards trying to get off Mirrors or stuff like that. So it's not uncommon for me to see the Black Joker in the flips 3-4 times a game with Colette. Same thing if you're facing anybody with lots of Hard to Wound models.

So I would contend that there ARE situations where it's good to hang onto the Black Joker as long as possible. But it's certainly not a 100%, across the board, you should always hold it, sort of rule. Really comes down to the situation. Sometimes, I will only hold it for 1-2 rounds, discarding it at the beginning of Round 4, simply because I expect that round to be incredibly crucial.

As an example, last night I pulled the Black Joker into my hand while playing Levi, and then with Alyce's extra two cards, I decided to immediately discard the Black Joker as one of the 2 cards I needed to discard. I knew for certain it was out of the way that round, and really freed me up a bit.

[Cadilon]

I agree I can only give one side of the story, and I don't think there is only one answer. But in a typical 6 turn game, assuming you were dealt the black joker on turn 1 and held it all game (discarding it at the beginning of Turn 6) it has cost you 5 random cards. A fair split is a 13, 10, 7, 4, 1. (Average value of 1 card is 7)

So for Combat I've probably cost me 2 duels over the game, maybe a third.

For spellcasting Its maybe 1 good spell less a game, unless I have a good range of suit requirements. in which case its 2 or 3.

In return, I typically go through 30 cards a turn, so I will see the black joker 3 times a game. So costing me 3 duals a game.

Touche! I really can't argue very strongly against your points, being without an advanced degree in mathematics or a poker championship. I think you make a number of assumptions that twist (heh) your figures in your favor. For instance, I've only played Ortegas in about 20 games, but I rarely go 30 deep into my deck.

I am really loving this discussion though because its testament to the amazing mechanic Wyrd has developed. This type of in depth strategy makes me think the game has legs and will be around a long time.

[Ciaran]

Touche! I really can't argue very strongly against your points, being without an advanced degree in mathematics or a poker championship. I think you make a number of assumptions that twist (heh) your figures in your favor. For instance, I've only played Ortegas in about 20 games, but I rarely go 30 deep into my deck.

I've had to reshuffle multiple times for both Perdita and Zoraida. Granted, it's as much my play style as anything else. It's also usually ONE turn, and it's a pivotal one. Having my Black Joker in play that one turn on those games would have been really bad for me, afterward it's usually not that big of a deal.

The Jokers are both meant to be game changers, and they really are. Often I'm just not willing to risk the game swinging in that way.

[Q'iq'el]

In return, I typically go through 30 cards a turn, so I will see the black joker 3 times a game. So costing me 3 duals a game.

But not 3 duels! 3 something, not necessarily duels (may be the initiative flip of may pop up when you shoot into melee). And even if it happens to be a duel, is a Black Joker all that worse than Low damage, when you cannot cheat it? Or is it more catastrophic than a low card on initial flip? Or when your opponent has such a good hand he can stop your spell even if you cheat up?

In the end, it's only a small portion of all duels where pulling Black Joker really loses you the game. That may be frustrating, but by holding your card you merely reduce the chance such a duel will go wrong - the opponent may still have better cards and win it, and lose you the game just as well. In all the other cases just suck it up.

[cerealkiller195]

if you get the black joker in your hand first turn and discard it in the second turn when you draw new cards. You really don't have to deal with it for a complete 2 turns. Or so me and my crew were thinking as much.

like i said i have not encountered two memorable moments that a black joker killed my game so maybe i don't quite see the effects of it. Every time i have flipped the black joker have been times where i would of had to cheat very high for a small action that didn't matter in the scheme of things anyway. Examples getting lured from max range with nothing that would attack me next turn anyway. Shooting for a few random wounds for lack of something better to do, etc.

i would still prefer getting that extra card because it will thin my deck out, if it is a low card i am thankful it didn't come up during a duel and if it was a high card now i have something good to cheat with.

[Chanst]

Using my mobile so I apologize for the dumb misspells.

I would like to restate how subjective this is. There is no right or wrong answer here. I can think of TONS of situations to keep it in your hand. I can also think of TONS of places to get rid of it.

I understand that there is a slim chance that it can come up in a flip. However it is much worse than any ace in the deck. It is designed to be that way. It has no suit. You can't cheat into it. Aces do damage, which can be pretty significant compared to no damage in a lot of attacks.

Holding it in your hand reduces you cards to viably cheat with. I understand that can be a big deal sometimes. It can also matter not a bit. the only time I use all my cards in my hand is when I am forced to discard for some reason.

The last game I played was a 50ss brawl. I was playing ressers. I drew the black joker in my starting hand. I held onto it on turn 2 so I could give my flesh construct fast. Because we were playing a high point game. I saw the black joker on turn 3, 4 and 6 from random flips. None of them were significant. My opponent drew it to start as well. He also discarded it turn 2. There were 3 turns when it showed up for him the rest of that game and all 3 were significant. 2 involved killing blows that did no damage. One was jack daw.

Every game is different, but it is a good example that shows that because there is randomness I this game there can't be a hard and fast rule about the strategy. For some theme chance of flipping it is enough for them to discard it at all times. For others the certainty of it never gumming up plans is enough to always hold onto it.

[nightgaunt98c]

If I have sting cards in my hand, I might hold it. But I'd rather have a chance at a good card than hold it for fear of flipping it. But then, I'm not playing in tournaments. I just play for fun. Getting the black joker is no worse , or more common than rolling a bunch of ones.

[Drake]

Ok, having lost a critical tournament game due to 1 card flip where I had coryphee duet flip the black joker for defence and die as a result and cost me the game, Im now 100% for holding onto black joker if I get the chance, and only drop at start of last turn...it can really completely end a game if it is pulled at the wrong time, which is totally was yesterday! Cost me second place, possibly even first place in the tourny...Black Joker is EVIL!!! lol

[ghostwalker]

Ok, having lost a critical tournament game due to 1 card flip where I had coryphee duet flip the black joker for defence and die as a result and cost me the game, Im now 100% for holding onto black joker if I get the chance, and only drop at start of last turn...it can really completely end a game if it is pulled at the wrong time, which is totally was yesterday! Cost me second place, possibly even first place in the tourny...Black Joker is EVIL!!! lol

Would have thought after our friendly game last sunday, you would realise just how destructive the black joker can be at the most inappropriate time. Hence both me and gamesmistress will sit on the card until it is no longer a threat.

[Q'iq'el]

And this is why they say the fear has big eyes.

Would you save that Duet if you pulled 1 or 3 instead of a Black Joker? Ok, I know you could've cheated then, but so could your opponent. Any guarantees?

In the end, the fear of the card will cripple your Control Hand.

[Cadilon]

And this is why they say the fear has big eyes.

Would you save that Duet if you pulled 1 or 3 instead of a Black Joker? Ok, I know you could've cheated then, but so could your opponent. Any guarantees?

In the end, the fear of the card will cripple your Control Hand.

This is the most profound, succinct comment in this thread. Thank you for making it.