Obey Sucks

[Calmdown]

Or, to be more accurate; the manner in which The Guild's obey delivery works, sucks. before you go all "hey, Obey owns, one time I did this with it", here's some actual explanation.

Obey

The major power of Obey lies in that it adds something that is fundamentally strong in almost every game of every type; focus. The ability for your obey-carriers to 'transfer' their AP, or in some cases, turn one of their AP into 2AP for someone else via an Obeyed charge, can be incredibly strong.

Also, Obey works on enemies. In this respect it's much like any other spell; there's a duel, you win or lose, stuff happens. It's secondary to Obey's primary use of Obeying your own guys (usually) but is a very flexible tactical option in a movement and objective based game.

The disadvantage of Obey lays in its casting cost, which for the guild is 14 Mask.

These things, taken by themselves, show Obey as being a great spell if sometimes a pain to cast. And it really is a great spell when you can cast it. But read on.

Perdita

The Guild's first obey delivery system is Perdita, and any Guild crew with access to Obey is 99% likely to be running Perdita as it's master. Now, Perdita is a scary teenager. She is well known for her enemy-shredding abilities. Why would you want to transfer AP from your best model onto another model? Well, sometimes you'll be 'transferring up' for a charge and getting 2AP elsewhere for your cost of 1; sometimes the AP may be better spent by another model. But, AP is always well spent by Perdita; and your 1 cost can also go to waste if you fail. We come now to Obey's major drawback. For Perdita to cast Obey with a standard 54 card deck, you have only around a 25% chance of success. Then you have to factor resistance flips in; Perdita's CA isn't so far above her friends (and in the case of family members with Stubborn, is lower) that they can't resist. What this means is is that to have a fair chance of success on your own models, you will likely need to cheat 1 card to cast and have a fair chance of needing to cheat a second. And all this gets you is an AP moved off onto another model. If we use it on an enemy, we're going to have to cheat to cast likely again, and we may even fail. Wouldn't you rather have just shot someone in the face?

Of course, whether Obey is good for Perdita or not is a moot point; if you've decided to use her as your master, she comes with it. It will always come up in play as a tactical option at some point and you will consider it. My main bugbear with Obey comes with the next two models who have it.

Enslaved Nephilim & Totems

Perdita is not very totem-friendly, having only one spell that her totems can cast; Obey. Her 'standard' totem is Enslaved Nephilim and he gets a lot of praise, but he comes with the same problems as Perdita; he has low chances of actually casting Obey without cheating. He needs to flip a 10+, which means a sub 1/3 chance of success without cheating. And his total will be low, which means more chance of resists and hence more chance of needing another card. See a pattern here? The odds of casting Obey are against you and casting it is almost always a 1-2 card investment. Cards are valuable. In addition to this, Enslaved Nephilim is a pretty bad totem outside of casting Obey; he doesn't give cool bonuses like Governer's Proxy, Student of Conflict, Essence of Power or Primordial Magic; he just melees stuff. Badly. The entire 2 points you invest into him are to make him an Obey battery, unlike other totems who have secondary benefits too.

Abuela Ortega

The last Guild model with Obey is Abuela. Now, she's a utility model and so she has a lot she can do, but none of it is as good as the potential effect of Obey. Again though, she has an odds-off cast thanks to the Mask in the casting cost, meaning she needs to - you guessed it - spend a card or two to get it off. In addition to this, she's a whopping 7 points, meaning that her 2 action points per turn are expensive things to waste on low-chance casts.

Obey is evangelised on this forum and others, likely because when it goes right, it can be spectacular. But now that Malifaux is starting to ramp up into tournament mode, the occasional spectacular chain of casts is not important compared to consistency and efficient lists. Many lists that include Perdita+Nephilim+Abuela are essentially wasting points; you're likely to only be able to cheat one of those Obeys into casting, meaning the other two are risky action points to spend. It's likely to be the Nephilim since that's all it does, meaning you're effectively paying 7 points for Abuela with redundant Obey, and she's a questionable include in any list.

Lets focus on the cards a little more; most people, in most games, don't really understand the true costs of using many abilities. Every card you throw, including low ones, is a lost resource. Against decks running Headshot/Decap etc, having to cheat in low cards to cast Obeys on your guys is removing defences. When running Nino (as most lists will), having to cheat in low cards removes potential trigger happy and headshot cheats (being 7/9 CB means he can often cheat low cards and still hit). Cheating in low rams removes potential cheats for your crit users who can hit with low cards against low def targets. The various guild Flurry and Rapid Fire users need cards, too. All cards are useful, and the true cost of Obey isn't just an action point and a flip, its all those nice suits and card-cost things that you can't do when you're feeding your cards to casters.

This argument could be written a lot longer than it already is, but the basic point is; I'm not convinced that the Obey-love this forum has is well founded in fact and good mathematics, nor that the points invested and strategy required for Obeying are worth it over taking more solid, reliable models.

Very interested in hearing comments on this!

[karn987]

Well I won't go into a huge amount of detail with this, but.... I think you are missing the biggest point to Obey. Obey is situationally extremely useful, you don't bring really any model besides Zoraida purely to get access to Obey. From the Guild side, yes it is a hard and expensive spell to cast... but that is another attack from your powerful models, or another move to get slow models like the Executioner into melee that much sooner and at the right time. Your not Neverborn, you already realize you don't have the high CA models with this spell. So you need to look at it from the angle where you get the most use which is using it on your own models. Remember you can also chose to tie the resist flip if you cast it on a friendly model. You must still make the flip, but you don't have to use another card from your hand to assure they fail the resist.

Sure it is a bit like transfering AP which is NOT always going to be useful. But there are many times it can be! As I said before, just getting the Executioner 1 more move forward can easily be worth the use of cards and AP. Havaing Loco hurl 1 more Dynamite could be very destructive in the right situation. Etc etc.

I can't flat out tell you, this is where it's best. But really you have to open your mind to the possibilities that it presents to you and understand that it will not be a work horse spell for Guild like it is for Zoraida. Sure you can pull it out into a vacuum and analyze it, but your going to miss the real power of this spell if you do that. Looking at it the way you typed up, I see what your saying. But I've had several games where a well timed Obey on the right model has made all the difference, it IS a spell that is most likely to be a huge gain or a huge bust.

So yes, Obey uses cards from your hand rather often. But if they are used for the right situation then they are 100% worth it. If your blowing Obey on just moving a dweeb forward... well that's your choice and maybe you are wasting a card then, it's to situational to just flat out say it is a waste.

As for the "waste" of Perdita + Enslaved + Abuela... all except for the Enslaved have much more to them then just that. So they are by far not a waste man because you don't bring them purely for that 90% of the time.

Edited May 18, 2011 by karn987

[Ratty]

It's a spell. If cast on a friendly model the Defender has the choice to draw which means that it goes off.

[Tiny]

Ratty i think has nailed the part you are misunderstanding the most. You have to beat the total of the cast to resist a spell. If you just have the first rulebook it has since changed awhile ago. First in the errata and its stayed the same in the rules manual.

[TheOneWhoFell]

Ratty ninja'd me

I was going to say that I can chose to tie, so I'm only "blowing" one card to cheat it. Also, Obey is really useful turn one (and two if you're on a 4x4) because it can get your big hitters closer to their goals. But once Perdita is in range (10" or closer) I tend to be too busy blowing the hell out of my opponent to use Obey. At that point I only use Obey to make things go away.

If I run Abuela it's for her other talents, not Obey. And I don't have a Neph... yet...

I understand your argument, but part of playing Malifaux is Resource Management. I am much more likely to hold a mask in my hand for "Faster'n you" than I am for Obey. I'd rather get the Head shot than be able to make a model move/charge/hit one more time. To me, Obey is just another resource; do I use this soulstone now, or hang on to it and take the damage? Do I use Obey now, or hold on to this 10:masks for a defense cheat?

[Calmdown]

Well, that significantly changes things! Makes casting Obey on turn 1 for positioning much more awesome. Thanks for the clarification dudes.

It doesnt change my opinion of the Nephilim though; Obey still needs a chea to go off a lot of the time, and investing 2 poins into him and havinng a heavily odds-on cheat requirement to make him work is why I wonder why he gets raved about so much.

As far as Abuela goes, its a slightly different subject; for such an incredibly fragile model with a very low range, I struggle to see the value in a 7 pont investment.

[Sholto]

If you take the Nephilim, you are taking him for Obey. Sure he needs a 10+, but you can always Channel the Cast which gives you a better than 50% chance of getting the right card. 2SS for another Obey? I pay it gladly.

[TheOneWhoFell]

As far as Abuela goes, its a slightly different subject; for such an incredibly fragile model with a very low range, I struggle to see the value in a 7 pont investment.

Abuela's actually pretty cool. To start off with, you have another model with Family... This ability is fantastic against hard to kill models. You activate the entire family, and kill the darn thing. She may only have a walk of 4", but most of the Ortega's have that anyway. Matriarch is another great ability. If you shoot her, I get to move toward your model with a push. Her Sawed off Shotgun might not have a huge range, but it keeps her out of Melee due because it pushes her 1" directly away from the target. Shotgun Wedding means you can and another model to the family pool, making her very useful. She can heal multiple people, including herself, she can make it dificult for anything to hit friendly models within 6" of her, and she can make it so you can't cast certain spells for an entire turn. So if you don't like Lure, you use Wash your Mouth Out.

My only complaint with Abuela, really, is that she doesn't have fast, or Casting expert. She's spell heavy, and it would be nice to be able to utalize that aspect of her because range is so small. In a Higher SS game, the cost of Abuela isn't bad, compared to some stuff you could hire.

[ghostwalker]

Im in general agreement with the above posts, Early in the game it can be a great tactical aid when not much else is going on. I dont like to let perdita get isolated so shes usually hopping from foot to foot with a spare ap. It is also very very usefull if your running an ortega themed crew with papa in it. Nothing hurts more than having him too near your own lines when he booms....trust me.

The other really usefull trick i find is to use it against once per turn enemy items. For me this is seamus's copycat killer. Obey that flintlock to fire and its hurting them not you. Even if it misses the copycat isnt gonna be shredding your crew with one of the most terryfying guns in Malifaux.

Dont miss out on tricks like pulling other ortegas into help either. Abuela so she can heal (shes slow so often left behind) or the likes of santiago/francisco to get those important 2ap actions going off.

[Cadilon]

Good discussion. I was leaning towards Calmdown's opinion of Obey. Just seems like I rarely am able to get Obey off and have it accomplish anything. Of course, that could be because I just don't feel efficient with anything right now.

But all these comments have given me a little insight and encouragement to continue to use Obey -in the "right" situations-.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Cadilon

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

With your math nephlim has a better chance at casting obey. If I bring a slow model like the executioner then it is essential I cam get him into melee. Also as you stated Perdita is great model is it worth wasting an shot to get her to obey probably not.

Keep in mind Perdita isn't that tough she only has 8 wounds and a lower cache. 2-3 hits and she is likely dead. Her models are usually expensive. She suffers from low activation count which she makes up with alpha strike option. 2ss for one more activation has saved me many of times.

[Calmdown]

With your math nephlim has a better chance at casting obey. If I bring a slow model like the executioner then it is essential I cam get him into melee. Also as you stated Perdita is great model is it worth wasting an shot to get her to obey probably not.

Keep in mind Perdita isn't that tough she only has 8 wounds and a lower cache. 2-3 hits and she is likely dead. Her models are usually expensive. She suffers from low activation count which she makes up with alpha strike option. 2ss for one more activation has saved me many of times.

Nephilim has the Outright best chance to cast Obey, and Obey can be awesome in the right circumstances. But 2 points is half a Death Marshal. For every time having a walking Obey is great, it can also be useless or average. Those two points could have been sunk into a non insignificant combatant. Is he really worth his points, or do we just have delusions of grandeur on his behalf?

[Adran]

Nephilim has the Outright best chance to cast Obey, and Obey can be awesome in the right circumstances. But 2 points is half a Death Marshal. For every time having a walking Obey is great, it can also be useless or average. Those two points could have been sunk into a non insignificant combatant. Is he really worth his points, or do we just have delusions of grandeur on his behalf?

Well as you say 2 points is half a death marshall. And it can be used to give the death marshal half an activation. so 2 points.

It can also be used to give the executioner half an activation, 3.5 points, or Samual Hopkins, 4 points. And you only need to choose which when you take the turn. I'd say that had some use.

I would pay two points to give a model of my choice fast each turn.

[Sholto]

But all these comments have given me a little insight and encourage to continue to use Obey -in the "right" situations-.

Obey is very situational, but if you get it to work at the right time it can be huge. Over several Turns, getting multiple extra charges out an Executioner or another beatstick like Misaki can be very damaging for your opponent.

[Wodschow]

I think people are forgetting that the Guild Obeys can be be used within the same Companion chain - this means the opponent won't have a chance to react to the Obeyed model that suddenly have a much larger threat-range..

Abuela in particular is worth mentioning here as she lets you adopt more Family members.

Just an example:

Normally the Executioner can Charge 6" and make a single attack at 2" making his threat range 8".

Two Obeys spend on charging the normally slow Executioner forwards immediately followed by his activation in which he can either Charge again or attack twice if he's within range of something.

So either a threat range of 14" with three attacks or one of 20" with a single attack.

And that's just two Obeys, having the right cards for that in your hand isn't an overly exceptional occurence.

It does however require you to activate a fairly large part of your crew at once, but that is and has always been the downside aswell as the strength of companion/Malifaux alpha striking.

[Calmdown]

Well as you say 2 points is half a death marshall. And it can be used to give the death marshal half an activation. so 2 points.

It can also be used to give the executioner half an activation, 3.5 points, or Samual Hopkins, 4 points. And you only need to choose which when you take the turn. I'd say that had some use.

I would pay two points to give a model of my choice fast each turn.

But lets not get silly - it doesnt always cast, it can be easily destroyed, it affects your activation order (despite companion), etc. 2 points for half a death marshal is a straighh up fact, 2 points to cast obey is not the same as 2 points for fast.

Not that im saying one is better than the other, but the discussion is good and I dont think taking a neph is as cut and dried as reading tacticas/other threads would suggest.

[nilus]

I think a lot of people covered obey, but lets talk why to take the Nephlim or Abuela

Abuela has a decent ranged attack, has the ability to heal, has an ability that draws other family models near her when he is hit. Plus the big one. She gives any non-unique model Family and companion. That is a huge ability and well worth her 7 points.

The Nephlim is really a 2nd obey. But it is a much more reliable obey since you don't need to count on a suit to get it off.

Like others have said, obey is situational but it can be devastating. But its just one trick out of many an Ortega crew can play with. As far as tournament play goes I have seen it work consistently for many people. Its just a matter of resource management. Saving cards over several turns and waiting for the right moment to mass companion and string several obeys together.

[TheOneWhoFell]

Keep in mind Perdita isn't that tough she only has 8 wounds and a lower cache. 2-3 hits and she is likely dead. Her models are usually expensive. She suffers from low activation count which she makes up with alpha strike option. 2ss for one more activation has saved me many of times.

Perdita may not have many wounds, but she has one of the best stat lines in the game (Wp - 7, Ca - 7:rams, Df - 8:rams, and Cb - 7:rams). Her models may be expensive, but they are definitely worth the extra points; most are specialized for certain things.

That being said, I would rather have a couple Death Marshals than a totem. I find that (with the exception of the Voodoo Doll) I don't use totems effectively. BUT if your goal is to create a Guild crew centered on the ability to make models Obey, you should take the Neph.

[Odin1981]

I believe what you are not getting with this ability is that its not a spell you always use. However when you use it becomes a force multiplier. Also like others have said if you save up 7-10's of masks over a couple turns you will more than likely have 2 on say turn 3 or turn 4.

Generally in my experiance this is the pivotal turn when most family lists will alpha because these are the turns unless you are playing against a fast crew were you will have the most to shot at.

It isn't that hard to save up cards with elite crews because generally your basic stat for whatever stat each model uses is generally somewhere between a 6-8 on average. The reason being is that with say a combat of 7 if you flip a 6-9 to your stat the range of the duel total is one that percentage wise gives you around a 65-70% chance of succeding said action.

Below is an example:

Perdita shoots X

X has a defense of 4-5 ( pick one it doesnt really change much by the way the overwhelming majority of models in this game have a def of 4 or 5.)

Assuming the gods and goddesses of cards don't hate you flip a 6-9 not a 1-5, I'll say a 7 for this example.

your total is a 14 X then makes a defense flip say def of 5,

assume that it is 6-9 say an 8 has a 13.

The only way for x to make you miss is to play atleast a 10 or higher (for this example we will assume that the jokers are not live) there are only 16 cards out of 52(54) that they will cheat to make you miss in a hand that we will say is 6. Also keep in mind that most high cards 10+ most players do not like using for defense unless you are attacking a model they need high cost high effect or master.

You win the duel more than likely close to around 70% of the time according to statistics. You have crit strike so you still do 3 damage with a weak flip ( who cares when your at a - when your min is 3?).

There are some variables I left out but that was to prevent this from getting really mindnumbingly in depth. But basically if for the first three turns or so you hold onto 7-10 of masks and say you have perdita and abuela in a list when (on turn 3) you are most likely to alpha you generally take around 15 draws at your deck.

For the obey cards you need just don't use them for anything else and you get free charges with say the executioner of by just making sure you maintain a good distance 12-16" away from models until aroun turn two when the opponent ends up generally closing to within 8-10 " from you.

[Jonas Albrecht]

This thread reminds me of just how much I wish the EN had an ability to hand out +mask to casting.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

[Calmdown]

Clearly he flipped a mask.

[Calmdown]

This thread reminds me of just how much I wish the EN had an ability to hand out +mask to casting.

Or in fact any ability that wasn't black blood + flay.

[Wodschow]

Or in fact any ability that wasn't black blood + flay.

I don't quite understand why you're so unsatisfied with the Nephilim...

You said in another thread that you use the Student of Conflict with Lady Justice. That's 4SS - for Fast - which you're unlikely to use more than a few times during the course of the game as the Student generally have problems in keeping up with whatever you give Fast.

Now Obey might be a drain on your control hand (but if you channel it like others have suggested chances are about 50-50 of it succeeding in the first place without you spending cards on it).

While in a way you could say that Obey simply gives you one more AP it is certainly alot more useful than Fast (can use Charge, could potentially affect enemy models, can activate models outside their own activations, etc.).

Obey also have a much larger range than the 3" (All)Assist of the Student and can if you don't Channel it be used on the move, so you're much more likely to use it multiple times during the game. And remember there's still all the potential of multiple Obeys in Companion here. Using Obey to move your models forward during the first turns of the game also means that yes you spend a card on it, but you're unlikely to need it anyway and will get a new hand at the end of the turn - a Charge is almost always better than a Walk which is what Fast could give you at best..

Should all this fail the Nephilim have a better profile than the twice as expensive Student and Flay/Black Blood can do some nasty unexpected damage to the enemy - better Cb also helps tying down enemy models if that should come up.

Now I'm not trying to say that the Student of Conflict is a bad totem, that wasn't my point at all.

But if you disregard the Nephilim as being useless and think of the Student as being worth it, then I really don't see where you're coming from.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Soc is great but expensive, however I just want to reiterate that obey in almost every situation is better than fast. And your more likely to get more uses of obey than fast in any guild crew.