Discarding Cards

[magicpockets]

If you discard multiple cards from your hand (i.e. Collette to get a Soulstone) do you need to show your opponent both/all cards or can you "hide" cards behind the front one?

Played a game last night and my opponent discarded the Black Joker from his hand without me knowing. I then made a decision as his deck ran out which backfired as the Black Joker wasn't in it (I didn't know he'd discarded it).

Away from the ethics etc, bottom line is this a legit strategy or do you have to show all discarded cards?

[Mike3838]

It sounds a bit too much like deliberate deceit or card manipulation to be a legit strategy.

I think all the cards discarded should be made known. The way a player handles his cards shouldn't have any bearing on the game IMHO.

Mike

[cain]

Rules say you cant look into the discard pile of the other player. All you see is the card on top.

So for discarded cards, this means (to me) you dont have to show them.

[marshimartian]

The only rule that even comes close is that players cannot look through discard piles. You could make the argument that you wouldn't know if the player had the Black Joker in his or her hand, which would have prompted the same decision based on assumption. I know I always hold on to my Black Joker if I have it in hand. Best you guys could do is house rule it if you feel it's an underhanded strategy. My opinion is that it is just as legitimate as counting cards (which is more or less what you were doing, making a decision bassed on high probability that your opponent would flip the Black Joker.)

[Hansel]

p.24 of the Rules Manual: "Players may not look through any discard piles, neither their own nor another player's..."

However (and the rules don't state this outright for discarding from the hand), it would seem that you have a right to look at any cards as they are discarded--that is, if your opponent is discarding from her hand, she should, technically, place each card one at a time on the discard pile so you are able to to at least see what it is one time.

Can we get any confirmation/denial of this from an authoritative rules person?

[Mike3838]

It's not the same as counting cards though. If someone is keeping a mental note of what cards have gone, however vaguely, then that information is available to both players.

In contrast, if you can sneak the Black Joker into the discard pile then you have information your opponent couldn't possibly know.

In the example given, it was perfectly reasonable to assume the last card in the deck was BJ, given that the opponents control hand was empty and it hadnt been seen that turn. However the guy who discarded it is at an advantage for having more information - information that should be public knowledge.

Mike

[Buhallin]

I think as a general principle, if the description of the event includes the word 'sneak' it's probably not very sportsmanlike.

As for rules to back that up, this is the relevant bit:

Discarding a card moves it from a player's Fate Deck, Control Hand, or from play to his or her discard pile, face up, without applying its value or suit.

The description is singular in all cases. IMHO, that means you can only discard one card at a time, each face up, so the value of each card would be known.

I'll freely admit that's not definitive and I'm reading it to support a position I already hold... but it's close enough for something that seems to me like it should be a pretty obvious case of fair play.

[EricJ]

p.24 of the Rules Manual: "Players may not look through any discard piles, neither their own nor another player's..."

However (and the rules don't state this outright for discarding from the hand), it would seem that you have a right to look at any cards as they are discarded--that is, if your opponent is discarding from her hand, she should, technically, place each card one at a time on the discard pile so you are able to to at least see what it is one time.

Can we get any confirmation/denial of this from an authoritative rules person?

The rules do not state that you have a right to look at them as they are discarded, so in this case, assume that you have no right to look through a stack of discarded cards, except of course the top card which remains visible in the discard pile.

I'm authoritative

[EricJ]

I think as a general principle, if the description of the event includes the word 'sneak' it's probably not very sportsmanlike.

As for rules to back that up, this is the relevant bit:

The description is singular in all cases. IMHO, that means you can only discard one card at a time, each face up, so the value of each card would be known.

I'll freely admit that's not definitive and I'm reading it to support a position I already hold... but it's close enough for something that seems to me like it should be a pretty obvious case of fair play.

This is the case most of the time! However with card discarding at the start of the turn, you discard any number of cards at once, so in this case it is multiple cards at once, not one at time. I understand the confusion there, and I hope we have it cleared up

[Buhallin]

This is the case most of the time! However with card discarding at the start of the turn, you discard any number of cards at once, so in this case it is multiple cards at once, not one at time. I understand the confusion there, and I hope we have it cleared up

Well, mostly cleared up

You mention "start of the turn" - so is that the only time that applies? If you're forced to discard from something like Slit Jugular, would those be revealed? Or does the "multiple cards" apply to any time you have to discard X cards?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Any time you have to discard multiple cards, you can choose to discard them one at a time or as a stack. You choose the last one to be face up.

[magicpockets]

Cool, thanks for clearing that up.

[Hansel]

Thanks for clearing things up, Eric & Sketch.

[marshimartian]

Thanks for clearing things up, Eric & Sketch.

Pshhh, no recognition for the little guys who happen to get it right now and again.

[Hansel]

I meant, thank you marshimartian! Who're Eric & Sketch? ;p

[marshimartian]

I meant, thank you marshimartian! Who're Eric & Sketch? ;p

May the Gods smile upon you :friday: