When does Hamelin's insignificant end

[magicpockets]

I can't find the original thread to necro to get this answer so thought it'd make sense to repost it for an answer.

If Hamelin's crew makes stuff insignificant, when does it end? The skills etc say "until the end of the encounter" - so does insignificant end before VPs are calculated which happens after the end of the game?

[Hookers]

Pairs of canine remains (and other models with similar ability)

really? that one is easy. if there are more than one within 3" then they aren't insignificant. if there isn't then they are insignificant. it's straight up what the ability says.

All the nightmare bury effects ?

not as straight forward but it doesn't have to be inconsistent. all the dreamer has to do is pop them out before the game ends. if the dreamer dies they all come out. that's why that ability was put in there for this exact reason.

also what happens when you are buried is completely different than the issue that is confusing people here (what until means). i brought up the bury effects because the ones that keep you from scoring VPs explicitly say so.

keep em coming! :party:

[Dolomyte]

can we at least get acknowledgement that this is being looked into?

[Hookers]

I'm sure if we went model by model we could find all sorts of things that might make a difference if game effects end before VPs are calculated.

I just don't understand the paranoia that saying "until means what it says" will somehow have far reaching effects across the board and break the game.

I'm not saying all game effects end; I'm saying the ones that explicitly say they end a la "until the end of the encounter" end when they say they do. Other things happen when they say they happen (such as calculating VPs, etc.)

[tenabrae]

I guess we'll have to wait and see what open minds make of it.

[magicpockets]

I guess we'll have to wait and see what open minds make of it.

I think we're on the same page here

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Are we done going back and forth now?

It's only Monday morning for crying out loud...

We'll get back to you all later today. No need to keep going on and on...

[mythicFOX]

Wow this thread got a little metaphysical.

Stalking the line between where the game ends and the reality begins...

[magicpockets]

Are we done going back and forth now?

It's only Monday morning for crying out loud...

We'll get back to you all later today. No need to keep going on and on...

Yay, the bear speaks

[Keltheos]

"Until the end of the Encounter" effects last through the Determining a Winner part of the Encounter, so models that wound up Insignificant until the end of the Encounter would count as such for Strategy and Scheme purposes and while determining VP.

[LoboStele]

"Until the end of the Encounter" effects last through the Determining a Winner part of the Encounter, so models that wound up Insignificant until the end of the Encounter would count as such for Strategy and Scheme purposes and while determining VP.

This is sort of what I had figured anyways, as that seemed to be part of Hamelin's schtick. Biggest impact is on Treasure Hunt...just gotta keep one piece Significant and make sure they have the gold. Any other things that really take that big of a hit?

[Elazar]

Reconnoiter. I often find it a tough-ish Strategy with Leveticus due to the insignificant on SPAs etc so I can imagine this being a tough one to do once Hamelin starts dishing it out. I suppose the key will be keeping key objective holders out of harms way until you can deal with those that can pass on that 'gift' Necropunks for me as they can stay in cover and leap with a bit of luck. Once Hamelin and Nix have gone your opponent is in the same boat so there's hope!

[PlasticBoy]

and collodi laughs all the way to the bank

[Hookers]

It affects claim jump, distract, reconnoiter, treasure hunt, and turf war. About 40% of the strategies and a fair number of the schemes too.

Like I said if it was ruled that way it would be changing the definition of "until" ("up to and excluding that point in time") for the purposes of the rules of the game, which is of course perfectly acceptable. However, there is already a word that means "up to and including that point in time" and that word is "through." :flute:

[LoboStele]

Darn that English language.

For what it's worth, 3 of those 5 Strategies you listed are off the 'Core' list which are also included in the Gaining Ground document. So, odds are you'd have at least 1-2 rounds in a tournament where Hamelin would be exceptionally powerful.

I hate Reconnoiter anyways though, LOL. And with Treasure Hunt, as long as you've got the Treasure Counter in your Deployment zone, it's still a 2-0 score in your favor, whether the carrier is insignificant or not. So, still possible to beat out Hamelin in that one, as long as you get to the treasure first. Claim Jump would likely be the trickiest one, but as pointed out above, and similar to Reconnoiter, you'd just have to make sure you kill Hamelin and Nix. Make it so neither person gets any points for Reconnoiter. Or, if you can swing it, keep a Significant model in the back corner on each side of your board. Really make the Hamelin player work for it to come get the models you have back there. Although, until Hamelin and Nix are dead, the Hamelin player will ALWAYS have more Significant models than anyone else, lol.

Destroy Evidence could be pretty crazy tough to pull off too, but would just be a matter of sacrificing whatever you needed to in order to VERY quickly get the objective markers.

I suppose though, out of the 'Core' rules, there are 4 strategies where Insignificant could really hurt, but should be ways to work around it. The other two, Contain Power and Slaughter....Hamelin's weak points. So, overall, probably not too bad, balance wise. At least forces people in a tournament setting to make sure that they have more than 1 crew, so that they can handle doing Slaughter or CP.

[Hookers]

Darn that English language.

:patriot: Just arguing some semantics!

haha I actually don't care at all about the effects it has on the game itself, I was just pointing them out because someone asked. If you play against hamelin in a tournament tell him to have fun trying to finish the game in the time limit. :toilet:

(ok that smiley didn't even make much sense, but I'm getting pretty close to having used them all, so fun)

[magicpockets]

Wow, didn't see that coming. Kinda makes me want to back to my last master to make it fairer and more fun for my opponents - and that was Pandora

[Ratty]

If you know you are playing one of these strategies against Outcase make sure you choose the right crew. Shrug Off or Dispel with Guild, Summoning based with Ressurectionists. Zoraida will be very good for Neverborn as she can summon Wicked Dolls and any Wicked Doll in range of her counts as significant, Collodi for a similar reason is great. Arcanists are a hard choice. Arcanist and Outcasts are a bit harder but you can always run denial.

Schemes are chosen after crews are revealed so just don't choose one that need significant models.

[Hookers]

Summoning based with Ressurectionists.

it would have to be the kirai/mcmourning "summon out of thin air" kind of summoning because there won't be any counters

[MadArcanist]

Seems fair considering Hamlin himself has little to no damage spell (other then Bleeding Disease and no one really uses that on him)

All in all it makes him a strong master, but not in the way we normally think of when we say "strong" master

[Sandwich]

Seems fair considering Hamlin himself has little to no damage spell (other then Bleeding Disease and no one really uses that on him)

All in all it makes him a strong master, but not in the way we normally think of when we say "strong" master

Hamelin is more than capable of bearing fangs.

(0)Fate is Meaningless means severe damage on either weapon whenever he wants, his Pipes are 1/3/3 so even a moderate hurts bad, and with a 7 Cb he won't be cheating super high all the time.

His Staff is 0/3/9 with the aforementioned (0)Fate is Meaningless that's pretty much a one shot on all models in game real quick and easy.

(1)Irresistible Lure is possibly the best AoE damaging spell in game. It only pulls models that can't hurt you and blasts them for 0/3/6 straight flip if they happen to touch you. With (+1)Fast that's a real lethal spell.

Then you come to the standard (1)Bleeding Disease which obviously does rely on your rats to smack things once or twice to use, but once a model has a single Blight Counter, Hamelin's (1)Bleeding Plague becomes utterly brutal due to Cb(:crows)Plague which basically allows you to spam that model to death.

[magicpockets]

But Sandwich, you've got to agree he's certainly less worrisome than a few weeks ago before we started dissecting his rules and lookingat counters?

[WUWU]

But Sandwich, you've got to agree he's certainly less worrisome than a few weeks ago before we started dissecting his rules and lookingat counters?

Hamelin is still pretty worrisome. No change there. But the ability to take down a Rat Catcher in one activation is a pretty big difference for the crews overall effectiveness

[magicpockets]

Hamelin is still pretty worrisome. No change there. But the ability to take down a Rat Catcher in one activation is a pretty big difference for the crews overall effectiveness

Yeah, I agree with that. Even psychologically opponents seem happier playing with that change, rather than thinking "what's the point"

[Sandwich]

But Sandwich, you've got to agree he's certainly less worrisome than a few weeks ago before we started dissecting his rules and lookingat counters?

Most definately, it works to simmer him down.

It really forces defensive play with the Swarm and I really like that change of pace.

It works perfectly to balance out with Indiscriminate Void.

That isn't to say I still think he's slightly tipped, but the reduction of Wd was certainly a step in a favorable direction.

Edited April 16, 2011 by Sandwich

[schristofersen]

It affects claim jump, distract, reconnoiter, treasure hunt, and turf war. About 40% of the strategies and a fair number of the schemes too.

So... check me on this... but if the Hamelin player looses Nix they are suddenly stuck with a crew that cannot handle about 40% of the strategies and a fair number of the schemes?

I still think Hamelin is bonkers but that does significantly help target priority, perhaps I am missing something.