Leveticus VS Rules Manual

[infernosolarc]

Hey all,

Just played my second game against a buddy last night, Leveticus vs Zorida, and we had some questions about the timing of stuff in the new Rules Manual.

1) Eternally Shackled: If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, during the Closing Phase ... Discard your Hand and draw up to your Crew’s Maximum Hand Size.

Since, in the rules manual, reshuffling also happens during the Closing Phase, can the Leveticus player choose to shuffle before drawing or after drawing from Eternally Shackled?

2) Something to Live For: Any Crew containing Leveicus draws 2 addiional Control Cards during the Draw

Phase when either Master is within 3” of this model at the

start of the Draw Phase.

Since you skip the Start Draw Phase on the first turn, does Something to Live For work?

Also, if you have 6 cards in hand, and thus do not draw, I assume you don't get to draw 2 cards from Something To Live For. We have been playing where I need to discard 1 card in order to draw 2.

[karn987]

Hey all,

Just played my second game against a buddy last night, Leveticus vs Zorida, and we had some questions about the timing of stuff in the new Rules Manual.

1) Eternally Shackled: If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, during the Closing Phase ... Discard your Hand and draw up to your Crew’s Maximum Hand Size.

Since, in the rules manual, reshuffling also happens during the Closing Phase, can the Leveticus player choose to shuffle before drawing or after drawing from Eternally Shackled?

2) Something to Live For: Any Crew containing Leveicus draws 2 addiional Control Cards during the Draw

Phase when either Master is within 3” of this model at the

start of the Draw Phase.

Since you skip the Start Draw Phase on the first turn, does Something to Live For work?

Also, if you have 6 cards in hand, and thus do not draw, I assume you don't get to draw 2 cards from Something To Live For. We have been playing where I need to discard 1 card in order to draw 2.

1) Eternally Shackled over-rides the normal way things are done. As always, the Cards can over-ride the core rules. So in this case, you draw before you shuffle because you only shuffle after that point in the turn.

So Simply, you MUST draw before you shuffle with Leveticus and this ability.

2) It does work. It gives you the ability to draw 2 Cards during the Normal Draw step which Leveticus would normally draw 0 cards in. So he draws these 2 cards when everyone else does, and not at the Eternally Shackled timing where he discards and redraws a full hand.

Also I am rather sure this lets you surpass your normal hand size. The rules tell you that you draw to your Max Hand Size with the Draw Step, this gives you 2 additional cards, essentially making your hand 8 cards if you have a full hand at that point.

[infernosolarc]

In the original rule book I would totally agree with you.

Shuffling your discard back in to your deck now happens during the Closing Phase though, between Start Closing and End Closing. Since Eternally Shackled only says during the Closing Phase, and doesn't specify when, I am confused.

[CrouchingMoose]

I'm not certain about this myself, but the way I look at it is a stack system or triggered effects from mtg.

When the closing phase starts, the game checks to see if leveticus died during the last turn. If so, eternally shackled activates and goes onto the stack, so you discard and draw (6) cards...then you start going through the normal start closing phase events (normal discard and shuffle). Then at they beginning of the next turn, you don't draw unless something to live for activates, in which case you draw 2 cards (regardless of hand size)

[Sam]

2) Something to Live For: Any Crew containing Leveicus draws 2 addiional Control Cards during the Draw

Phase when either Master is within 3” of this model at the

start of the Draw Phase.

In this case the player shouldn't draw more cards in the draw phase than their max hand size. (Rules Manual Page 30)

If this ability was intended to increase your hand size it would be worded like the Freikorps Librarian's Arcane Reservoir.

Edited March 21, 2011 by Sam

[MrNybbles]

Let's look at all of the current rules involved and try to follow them.

Draw Phase step A seems to be worded awkwardly, but it looks like it says anything that starts during the Draw Phase starts at step A, anything that occurs During the Draw Phase occurs during step A, and anything that ends during the Draw Phase ends during step A.

Malifaux: Rules Manual (p.24)

Maximum Control Hand Size

The maximum Control Hand size depends on the size of Encounter being played. For Scraps, the maximum number of Cards is 6; fro Brawls, it is 7 (see Choose Encounter Size, p.62). During the turn, players can have more Cards in their Hands than the maximum, but they must discard down to the maximum Hand size during the Draw Phase (p.39).

Malifaux: Rules Manual (p.30)

1) Draw Phase

. . .

A. Start Draw Phase

Any effects which indicate a start, occur, or end during the Start Draw Phase, respectively start, occur, or end.

B. Discard Control Cards

Players may discard any number of Control Cards from their Control Hand at this time.

C. Draw Control Cards

Players draw Control Cards until they reach the maximum Hand size for the Encounter size (6 for Scrap, 7 for Brawl) they are playing. If a player is already holding the maximum number of Cards, that player does not draw any cards. If a player has more Cards in his or her hand than the maximum, that player does not draw any cards and must discard Cards until he or she has no more than the maximum number of cards allowed in his or her Hand.

V3 Leveticus

Empty Inside: Beginning with the second turn, while this model is in play, Crews containing it draw 0 cards during the Draw Phase. You ignore any enemy effects targeting this model which require you to discard Control Cards.

V2 Rusty Alyce

Something to Live For: Any Crew containing Leveticus or

Ramos draws 2 additional Control Cards during the Draw

Phase when either Master is within 3” of this model at the

start of the Draw Phase.

So, Empty Inside does not effect the Maximum Hand Size, it just makes you draw 0 cards during step C. Something to Live For takes effect during step A of the Draw Phase.

? ? ?

! ! !

This seems really really . . .

It still benifits Ramos, though in the most bizzare way imaginable that still works. Example:

In a Scrap Ramos has 6 cards in his hand at the end of turn 1, all of which are less than 7. During next Draw Phase he draws 2 additional cards during step A, one is the Black Joker and the other is the Red Joker. During step B he discards everything but the two jokers. In step C he draws 4 more cards bringing him up to the maximum of 6 cards.

It works the same for Leveticus though. You draw two cards during step A due to Something to Live For. During step B you may discard cards. During step C you draw 0 cards due to Empty Inside.

Yeah, that seems really really really . . . really really really oddball to me.

Edited March 21, 2011 by MrNybbles

[LoboStele]

Hmm....interesting....We had always assumed that you drew up to 8 cards during Step C, then had to discard down to 6 because of "must discard Cards until he or she has no more than the maximum number of cards allowed".

This does seem to severly limit Alyce's abilities though. Weird. Seems like, on Turn 1, you would draw 2 cards with Alyce, then you would have to immediately decide whether you want to keep those or not. If you keep them, then you'd only draw 4 cards during Step C. Is that what you guys are suggesting?

[poulpox]

We've been playing that in turn 1 Levi in range of Alyce draws 8 cards and discards 2 straight away (starting his first activation with a 6 cards control hand). Turn 2 he draws 2 cards only (if Alyce is in range), but would only discard if his control hand contains more than 6 cards.

T.

[MrNybbles]

Hmm....interesting....We had always assumed that you drew up to 8 cards during Step C, then had to discard down to 6 because of "must discard Cards until he or she has no more than the maximum number of cards allowed".

This does seem to severly limit Alyce's abilities though. Weird. Seems like, on Turn 1, you would draw 2 cards with Alyce, then you would have to immediately decide whether you want to keep those or not. If you keep them, then you'd only draw 4 cards during Step C. Is that what you guys are suggesting?

We've been playing that in turn 1 Levi in range of Alyce draws 8 cards and discards 2 straight away (starting his first activation with a 6 cards control hand). Turn 2 he draws 2 cards only (if Alyce is in range), but would only discard if his control hand contains more than 6 cards.

T.

Yeah, as far as I can tell that's what everyone thought. It wan't until going through the new rules for my post above that I started thinking that's how it works. I would have expected something like the draw cards step to follow the discard down to your normal hand size step, but they made it the same step. Currently I can't think of any other ability that occurs during the Draw Phase.

I'm not certain this is the Rules As Intended for how everything works. I'm kinda hoping I got something wrong and that the whole thing is actually a lot more straightforward than what it currently looks like.

Have I mentioned how bizarre this is yet?

[LoboStele]

Well....we are in the Rules forum... <lays out plate of cookies>

Perhaps we could get some help on the intent here.

[infernosolarc]

Looking again at the new rules manual, taking into account what was said here:

Eternally Shackled, due to the use of the word During and not specifying End Close Phase or Start Close Phase I think is still ambiguous. That being said, I will continue to draw cards, then shuffle, since it seems to be the consensus of what was meant.

Something to Live for, now that draw and discard down to hand size has been lumped into one step, clearly does not let you get above the hand limit.

I am still not sure on if you should get to draw if you are already at the hand limit, or on the first turn.

Overall, it is making me look at alternatives to Rusty Alice, since getting to see more cards is nice, but not getting to go over your hand limit makes it less powerful by a long shot.

Leaning towards picking up a Steamborg Executioner or either Dead Rider or Hooded Rider.

[LoboStele]

Eh, I was a bit miffed when my buddy pointed out that I could still only have 6 cards in hand, even with Alyce. But I've quickly realized that it's still great to have her, even at the cost of +2 SS in a Ramos crew, for the ability to get rid of your two lowest cards. Plus, she's a great attacker with her Cb 6 ranged attack and then being able to cast Rust with a Ca of 7 or 8, depending on whether you've got her paired with Levi or Ramos.

[MrNybbles]

Eternally Shackled, due to the use of the word During and not specifying End Close Phase or Start Close Phase I think is still ambiguous. That being said, I will continue to draw cards, then shuffle, since it seems to be the consensus of what was meant.

My previous posts were all regarding Rusty Alyce's ability related to the Draw Phase. I completely blanked on the separate question about Leveticus being asked and assumed you meant to refer to his Empty Inside ability which also has to do with the Draw Phase.

Sorry about that.

V2 Leveticus

Eternally Shackled: If this model is killed or sacrificed during the turn, during the Closing Phase sacrifice a friendly Hollow Waif and Place this model into base contact with that model before it leaves play, then sacrifice all other friendly Hollow Waifs in play. Discard your Hand and draw up to your Crew’s Maximum Hand Size.

Okay, yeah, it's a typo. If only we could fill in the blank with either Start or End.

V2 Hollow Waif

Shackled: Summon this model to a friendly Leveticus at the End Closing Phase if it was killed or sacrificed during the turn.

I'd say in Leveticus' Eternally Shackled they meant for it to happen during the End Closing Phase judging by the wording of Shackled. Looking back at my original Book 1 the wording for Shackled was updated, but not for Eternally Shackled. Not so much a typo but a missing update I guess.

Malifaux: Rules Manual ("The Game", p.32) Abridged.

3) Closing Phase

. . .

A. Start Closing Phase Step

. . .

B. Resolve Effects Step

. . .

C. Shuffle Fate Decks Step

. . .

D. End Closing Phase Step

Any effects which indicate a start, occur, or end in the End Closing Phase, respectively start, occur, or end. Any player with cards in his or her discard pile at the end of this Phase must reshuffle his or her Deck and discard as in C. above.

So if Leveticus is summoned to a friendly Hollow Waif due to Eternally Shackled you would shuffle you deck in step C, then draw back up to your Maximum Hand Size.

I hope this helps.

[infernosolarc]

Eternally Shackled has to execute before Shackled though for Leveticus' entire resurrection mechanic to work.

So, given that we know the Waif Shackled happens at the End Closing Phase, and the only other closing phase where random stuff happens is the Start Closing Phase, I think it is probably safe to assume that Leveticus must Resurrect at the Start Closing Phase.

[MrNybbles]

Eternally Shackled has to execute before Shackled though for Leveticus' entire resurrection mechanic to work.

Not necessarily. It is very possible that Eternally Shackled was meant to occur during the Start Closing Phase, but it would also work during the End Closing Phase, although this is a bit difficult to explain.

Rules Manual (Intro, p.7)

Timing

. . .

* If an effect causes another effect to activate while it is being resolved, pause the first effect, completely execute the newly triggered effect, and then return to the first effect at the point it was paused.

. . .

* Multiple effects that end within the same Step end simultaneously.

. . .

Let us assume Leveticus and Hollow Waif A were killed during a turn, and Hollow Waif B was still in play during the End Closing Phase. 1a and 1b would resolve simultanously while 2 will interrupt 1a and 1b, resolve, then 1a and 1b finish resolving.

1a) Leveticus is placed into base contact with Hollow Waif B, then Hollow Waif B is sacrificed.

1b) Hollow Waif A is summoned to Leveticus.

2) Hollow Waif B interrupts 1a and 1b after Leveticus is placed and is summoned to Leveticus because it was sacrificed causing Shackled to be triggered during the End Closing Phase.

Because Shackled and Eternally Shackled would trigger and resolve at the same time you can summon Hollow Waif A to Leveticus who according to the rules returns to play at the exact same time.

Um, yeah, that is kinda clunky, but so far it looks like it works according to the rules.

This really doesn't tell us if the cards are drawn during the Start Closing Phase or End Closing Phase. Although very related to the original second question, I've posted a new question in the thread Leveticus' Eternally Shackled timing question asking which phase it should occur in. (Basically the answer to the original second question is "no, you don't get to choose to shuffle before or after drawing," but Eternally Shackled is unclear as to when).

I forgot to include this earlier in the thread which is part of the second question that was asked.

Malifaux: Rules Manual (p.30)

1) Draw Phase

Each step in the Draw Phase is taken using the previous turn's activation order. On the first turn, skip steps A and B and start with step C of the Draw Phase.

. . .

[MrNybbles]

Okay, I talked with the people at my LGS and I found what is probably an error I was making earlier. (Basically the Empty Inside and Something to Live For abilities specify the Draw Phase and NOT the Start Draw Phase step, but are probably meant to take effect during the Draw Control Cards step).

2) Something to Live For: Any Crew containing Leveicus draws 2 addiional Control Cards during the Draw

Phase when either Master is within 3” of this model at the

start of the Draw Phase.

Since you skip the Start Draw Phase on the first turn, does Something to Live For work?

Yes, it still works. You don't skip the entire Draw Phase on the first turn but only steps A and B. Something to Live For takes effect during step C which is when you draw your cards.

If you have Both Leveticus and Rusty Alyce in your crew for a Scrap then on the first turn you draw 8 cards on the first turn if Something to Live For is triggered.

Also, if you have 6 cards in hand, and thus do not draw, I assume you don't get to draw 2 cards from Something To Live For. We have been playing where I need to discard 1 card in order to draw 2.

Looking at the rules and talking to other people at my LGS about this we reached the same conclusion.

1) Draw Phase

Each step in the Draw Phase is taken using the previous turn's activation order. On the first turn, skip steps A and B and start with step C of the Draw Phase.

A. Start Draw Phase

Any effects which indicate a start, occur, or end during the Start Draw Phase, respectively start, occur, or end.

B. Discard Control Cards

Players may discard any number of Control Cards from their Control Hand at this time.

C. Draw Control Cards

Players draw Control Cards until they reach the maximum Hand size for the Encounter size (6 for Scrap, 7 for Brawl) they are playing. If a player is already holding the maximum number of Cards, that player does not draw any cards. If a player has more Cards in his or her hand than the maximum, that player does not draw any cards and must discard Cards until he or she has no more than the maximum number of cards allowed in his or her Hand.

[Csonti]

Bumping it in hope for a Marshal's answer.

[Csonti]

---bump---

[FearLord]

EDIT - Didn't read the whole thread for some reason...

Edited May 10, 2011 by FearLord

[Shawn Kehoe]

If an effect specifies the Closing Phase without the specific sub-phase I always presume Resolve Effects. That way it occurs after all Start Closing effects but before the End Closing effects.

[Yosh]

Hi!

Can we get an offical answer to these questions, please?

• Can we choose the point where does Leveticus return? Before or after the shuffle? I don't wanna presume things, i want to be crystal clear.
  
• If we cannot choose then where does he return?
  

Thanks in advance,

Yosh