magicpockets Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Here's a wild thought... make Indiscriminate Void once per encounter. Is it really necessary to make a master nigh unkillable anyway? It's just a different take on the Leveticus mechanic, and I think he's meant to be that way so that he doesn't become the weak point in his entire crew. When you combine the fact that Hamelin has to be on the front line with his rats, that rats don't block LOS so he can be targeted, and bearing in mind that without Hamelin it VERY quickly falls apart for his crew - he needs to be that resilient imo. Plus it fits in with his fluff (which is important) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 It's just a different take on the Leveticus mechanic, and I think he's meant to be that way so that he doesn't become the weak point in his entire crew. When you combine the fact that Hamelin has to be on the front line with his rats, that rats don't block LOS so he can be targeted, and bearing in mind that without Hamelin it VERY quickly falls apart for his crew - he needs to be that resilient imo. Plus it fits in with his fluff (which is important) I have to disagree. Between Bully and Hamelin's relatively high stats (Coupled with The Void scaring your opponent from cheating), you really shouldn't come to rely on Indiscriminate Void to keep Hamelin ticking. Generally if you're playing sensibly, by the time your opponent actually has the opportunity to hurt Hamelin, they won't have enough models or a high enough damage output to take Hamelin down anyway. While I completely agree that Indiscriminate Void is necessary to keep Hamelin alive for the entire game, I don't feel that you should have both Bully and Indiscriminate Void to turn you into a merciless evil killing machine. Really, if you think about it, Hamelin is damn near untouchable due to Bully. He has what, 4 different ways to make you Insignificant? (1)Understand the Soulles Haunting Melody (1)Overrun by Vermin (All)Abandon I'm sure I'm missing one or two, but regardless. All four of these are very easy to get off, are very easily spammable, and are very reliable to take effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 If anyone bitches about a TO's houseruling and wishes to use hamelin RAW in a tournament allow them to do so, he dies and comes back with 0 wounds, so is dead again. Next time they wont be so stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cain Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 (1)Understand the Soulles Haunting Melody (1)Overrun by Vermin (All)AbandonWp resist Wp resist Def resist and only for 1 turn discard 2 control cards None of these is automatic. Yes you can make the totals unresistable by high cards + ss, and you can run out of hand cards. But i dont see any difference to dead by headshots and other bad happenings. If your running away every turn by Pandoras trigger or be forever paralyzed by Nicodems spell with unresistable high castings you are out of the game too. No actions anymore and no scenario success. If i get the choice between dead, paralyzed, fleeing or insignificant, i prefer Hamelins way because i still can beat the hell out of his friends... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elril Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 A question about the "infinite" loop. First, he needs a stolen within 3" to do it correct? Any yes he can summon stolen, but my book says only one per turn. lastly, after he does the void his Ca is a 3 for the rest of the game? Do I have that all right? If i am right, wow, totally overpowered.:surprised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 the infinite loop is that people are considering the placing a new model, therefor he can summon a stolen again and keep doing it, your right about the 3 ca stat blowing though. in reality, placing is not a new model, so he currently gets placed with no wounds and dies instantly, so RAW the entire thing is broken, and in the "this model does not work" kind of way. The house rule I believe most people agree upon is that He gets placed as the existing model, but is healed back to full health. therefor you cant keep summoning stolen and he does not die instantly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elril Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Well, I have the book in front of me- it says summon, which would infer a new model. It clarifies in the same action that there is a -4Ca though. Also the lure Malifaux Citizen clearly says :This action may be taken once per turn. End statement, not per model. It works perfectly well as written, but I am sure some people want to interpret it differently. I have never understood the desire to find the loop hole in a game and exploit it. I really never liked trying to make a loop hole by linguistic acrobatics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 except, and you prolly need the read the rules forum thread to have seen this, or to own the model i suppose, that it is no longer summon, it's place. the card is what broke it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elril Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 K, that makes a difference, though the difference would be he is still missing all his wounds and is dead. Rather than opening up an infinite loop. Shouldn't change the summon the stolen bit though. I am guessing he should be healed back to 10 wounds, they didn't want him slowed by a summoning would be my guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Wp resist Wp resist Def resist and only for 1 turn discard 2 control cards None of these is automatic. Yes you can make the totals unresistable by high cards + ss, and you can run out of hand cards. But i dont see any difference to dead by headshots and other bad happenings. If your running away every turn by Pandoras trigger or be forever paralyzed by Nicodems spell with unresistable high castings you are out of the game too. No actions anymore and no scenario success. If i get the choice between dead, paralyzed, fleeing or insignificant, i prefer Hamelins way because i still can beat the hell out of his friends... You can't be targeted by Headshot, for one. For two, Hamelin can drop your Wp by a grand total of 4. -2 from his Rat's Rabies, which is oddly easy to get off. And another -2 from sacking his Stolen, also equally easy to get off. MOST models have a Wp of 5, with some slightly lower, some slightly high. In an average game against Hamelin, your opponent's average Wp will be 2. Immune to Influence means nothing, the Stolen have a Ca of 5 and (1)Succumb. Most Immune to Influence models have a Df of 6 or lower (Save Perdita.) You therefore have a slightly higher than average chance to remove Immune to Influence and apply Insignificant via (1)Understand the Soulless. As for Nicodem's "Unresistable High Casting" for paralyze, he has a Ca of 7, and Hamelin has a Wp of 8. Pandora has a Ca of 6 to your Wp of 8. Her Wp probably won't drop from the Rabies, but you CAN guarantee she's gonna be at a -2 from No Humanity, (Meaning 5 Wp.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 This action may be taken once per turn. Unfortunately this is a common phrase that appears on a lot of cards and has a set meaning ie once per model. If it wasn't the case Seamus and the Copycat Killer wouldn't be able to both use their flintlock and Punk Zombies couldn't all use there ability, only one could. Even if you plug this gap so he can only create one stolen a turen you end with the issue that Hamelin can start with 3 stolen then create one Stolen a turn for the first 3 turns, if he dies on turn 4, he can activate 7 times in a row if he so chooses. Which is silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elril Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Unfortunately this is a common phrase that appears on a lot of cards and has a set meaning ie once per model. If it wasn't the case Seamus and the Copycat Killer wouldn't be able to both use their flintlock and Punk Zombies couldn't all use there ability, only one could. Even if you plug this gap so he can only create one stolen a turen you end with the issue that Hamelin can start with 3 stolen then create one Stolen a turn for the first 3 turns, if he dies on turn 4, he can activate 7 times in a row if he so chooses. Which is silly. K, got it all then. I would guess the easiest fix would be to return to the books wording of summon. and possibly going to "the" hamelin vs. "a" hamelin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 You can't be targeted by Headshot, for one. For two, Hamelin can drop your Wp by a grand total of 4. -2 from his Rat's Rabies, which is oddly easy to get off. And another -2 from sacking his Stolen, also equally easy to get off. MOST models have a Wp of 5, with some slightly lower, some slightly high. In an average game against Hamelin, your opponent's average Wp will be 2. Immune to Influence means nothing, the Stolen have a Ca of 5 and (1)Succumb. Most Immune to Influence models have a Df of 6 or lower (Save Perdita.) You therefore have a slightly higher than average chance to remove Immune to Influence and apply Insignificant via (1)Understand the Soulless. As for Nicodem's "Unresistable High Casting" for paralyze, he has a Ca of 7, and Hamelin has a Wp of 8. Pandora has a Ca of 6 to your Wp of 8. Her Wp probably won't drop from the Rabies, but you CAN guarantee she's gonna be at a -2 from No Humanity, (Meaning 5 Wp.) He was saying he would rather not be able to attack hamelin then have to deal with pandoras (who is unresistable because she can soulstone and most models cannot) shenanigans. he was saying headshot is annoying in the way hamelins other stuff is annoying. etc. etc. Read his post before you rage post how amazing hamelin is! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Whats the closest airport to where you live sandwich. your love of hamelin is almost to the point of goading me to fly out there and meet you at your LGS's gaming night. also, if I did, could I crash on your couch? or wuwu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cain Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) He was saying he would rather not be able to attack hamelin then have to deal with pandoras (who is unresistable because she can soulstone and most models cannot) shenanigans. he was saying headshot is annoying in the way hamelins other stuff is annoying. etc. etc. Read his post before you rage post how amazing hamelin is!Sometimes my posts seem not so understandable as i thought.. I referred to the "Look how many ways Hamelin makes you insignificant" posts. Yes he can do it several ways. But ANY of his ways gets a resist. In similar ways you resists other bad stuff from other masters. And i consider the "other bad stuff" more worse. Drop two cards or die by headshot. Drop two cards or be insignificant. Resist by Wp and get paralyzed (Nico). Resist by Wp and run away (Pandora). Resist by Wp and get insignificant (Hamelin). What do players prefer? Can he drop your resisting stats? Sure. But their is no diffence to for example"Lilith: I beam you into this lava barbecue pool with a total of 25 because i have some ss left, sure, you can make a resist dear unable-to-use-soulstones model". If you want duels to be unresistable for your opponent you go for it. If not, your opponent gets a chance to show you are not so powerful Mr. Hamelin. Besides, i consider it kind of funny how players always scream "OMFG Hamelin is so powerful because he makes me insignificant". No one is scared about Hamelin oneshotting models by stick hitting... Edited March 23, 2011 by cain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 Once per turn is a models turn. He is a new model same way as summoning when he comes back and thus can make another stolen. That's what makes the combo infinite. Some have argued its the same model not a new one and could not do it again. Problem is if it was not a new model it says nothing about him healing and he drops dead again. By the current rules it works for an infinite combo. Thus wyrd is looking at it. Yes the -4 is perm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 He was saying he would rather not be able to attack hamelin then have to deal with pandoras (who is unresistable because she can soulstone and most models cannot) shenanigans. he was saying headshot is annoying in the way hamelins other stuff is annoying. etc. etc. Read his post before you rage post how amazing hamelin is! Twas no rage, I promise. I'm very much calm. And I did misinterpret, because it was fairly late. So my bad. :] --- Whats the closest airport to where you live sandwich. your love of hamelin is almost to the point of goading me to fly out there and meet you at your LGS's gaming night. also, if I did, could I crash on your couch? or wuwu Seatac, but its an hour and a half drive to our LGS. And my girl and I live together so its a probably no for the snoozing otherwise I'd have no problem. :[ -------- Sometimes my posts seem not so understandable as i thought.. I referred to the "Look how many ways Hamelin makes you insignificant" posts. Yes he can do it several ways. But ANY of his ways gets a resist. In similar ways you resists other bad stuff from other masters. And i consider the "other bad stuff" more worse. Drop two cards or die by headshot. Drop two cards or be insignificant. Resist by Wp and get paralyzed (Nico). Resist by Wp and run away (Pandora). Resist by Wp and get insignificant (Hamelin). What do players prefer? Can he drop your resisting stats? Sure. But their is no diffence to for example"Lilith: I beam you into this lava barbecue pool with a total of 25 because i have some ss left, sure, you can make a resist dear unable-to-use-soulstones model". If you want duels to be unresistable for your opponent you go for it. If not, your opponent gets a chance to show you are not so powerful Mr. Hamelin. Besides, i consider it kind of funny how players always scream "OMFG Hamelin is so powerful because he makes me insignificant". No one is scared about Hamelin oneshotting models by stick hitting... Well, he's stupid powerful for more than just being easily untouchable. He can obey any nonmaster in the game (Pipes) He can recycle high cards like no tomorrow. He's got very high base stats. I can go on and on. I was just stating that because of Bully, he doesn't need Indiscriminate Void. I did misread your post, I was hasty and tired, it was my fault, and I apologize. But with the new Rules Manual, there's like a grand total of 3 ways an Insignificant model can net you Vp, and against Hamelin, it's much the same as being Paralyzed or scared. You're forced to die, fight, or stand still and die some more. When you become Insignificant, the only model worth targeting becomes untargettable. Unless you plan on icing Rat Catchers, at which point each action targeting them requires a Wp->13 duel, so, eh. And even if Hamelin's models can't use Soul Stones, when you're resisting with 1-2 Wp, it doesn't matter, especially with how worthless you're allowed to treat Hamelin's cards. :/ And as for the last note, Hamelin is only so powerful because he can stop you from being allowed to Target him. :[ I promise, by the way, I'm not trying to be dickish. It's just hard to express emotion and whatnot via text. All in fun. :] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippieshopper Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Whats the closest airport to where you live sandwich. your love of hamelin is almost to the point of goading me to fly out there and meet you at your LGS's gaming night. also, if I did, could I crash on your couch? or wuwu We're in Tacoma...you can google the Game Matrix =P And Hamelin is still OP, I would rather take on Pandora, she's annoying too but at least I can beat her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenabrae Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 you could simply add 'Hamelin may not activate this turn.' Probably cause more headaches for new players who don't understand the nuances of the wording but it doesn't get in the way of anything else (other than potentially reactivate which isn't likely to be an issue at this point in the game). It also doesn't prevent him using multiple stolen if he happens to die more than once in the same turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Did they get around to removing Hamlin's auto win button? I have this weird image of Hamelin being taken to the vet in a cage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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