Sliver Chocobo Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I've been trying to get my girlfriend into Malifaux, but she's completely turned off by the majority of the female characters in the game, namely comedy breasts and/or underwear. Lots of rolling eyes from her at the pictures of Lady Justice and the Taelor model in particular For myself, I love that Malifaux has created some really strong and diverse female characters in the fluff, it just seems strange that the art and/or mini design lets itself down with stereotypical images of fantasy women. Malifuax isn't the worst in the bussness, (looking at you relic knights) but that's saying much, it's a bad business and neededs to change look up extra credits, dan has a video on sexism in video games, which I think is verry relitve to this topic Also Sonnia Criid Greatest Women Ever Seriously look her, she's not flashing off anything, she not flossing anything off, she is attractive, but that is because she physically fit and tend to attach beauty with physical fitness It comes across as female-friendly until you actually look at things. At the point, we start to see a lot of Vallejo-ish ideals crop up. I find it somewhat ironic that the burlesque performers of Colette and crew are actually some of the most conservatively dressed female in the game. Lady Justice, Perdita, Vicky, Colette, Lilith, Taelor,the Lelitu, Nekima (judging by the concept art), and the Nurses could all use less cheesecake models--they're all beautiful minis, but they come across as more than a little objectifying Looking at the background, we see shades of Frank Miller. Not everything is "whoreswhoreswhoreswhorsewhores," but there's certainly an undercurrent. You have undead prostitutes, living burlesque dancers (who are, it is hinted, also prostitutes, but this is hardly surprising), and at least one Master who is a former prostitute--Colette is arguable here, since it's not flat-out stated. Furthermore, females are regularly described as beautiful, whereas the males get far fewer such descriptions. In fact, the only real time where we get females who are not depicted and/or described as alluring, they are deliberate subversions in the form of old ladies--Abuela Ortega and Zoraida. Even Rasputina is a little over-the-top in the "soviet cheesecake" style. Admittedly, the Silent Ones are an exception, but it's one of the few. Is Malifaux female-friendly? Perhaps in comparison, but it has a long ways to go before it could be considered non-objectifying towards women. Yeah it's pretty dam bad, I have tendency cover women up a bit, my Lilith is a lot more respectable than she is normally, then again google Lilith, see what happens And Colette is not a prostitute, read her fluff, I'm pretty sure it say's she wont go that far on principle and she has too much respect for her girls to let them do that as well. I do like the silent ones as well, the only problem is, convincing people that it's a she, what are only expected to notice women in they're over sexed up forms, something to think about? I think it totally fits the "larger than life" style of the characters. Flip open an X-Men comic. What will you see? Strong female characters in skin-tight tops and massive breasts. I've yet to hear anyone complain about that objectifying women, though perhaps I just instinctually avoid those kind of people! JLA, Nuff said Then again it's not if women are above this either, look at stuff women like and if there is a man on the front cover, he is topless and muscular. Look at Twilight (ok it's a walking pile of abomination to things vampire (ok going off topic here, I'll put aside my hate for this)) when girl talk about this, it's alway you do like more Edward or the wear-wolf guy(I don't know his name) aka the whole how would you rather sleep with wonder women or super girl. Disclaimer : I know I make a lot of joke about women, but I don't think or act that way, I'm just acting as the stereotypical male geek, if anything it's more sexist towards other men than women Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 It is called dresscode and it is part of corporation culture and structures and workplaces.There are places, where you can´t dress as you want. But do you know, how do these managers dress in their free time? In their free time, they are able to dress as they please, of course, but I was referring specifically to the "work" comment made earlier. Hey, what about swimming pools?Disturbing!Beaches?As well! Pools and beaches also have dress codes, to a certain extent. Or at least, they did when I was a lifeguard 10-15 years ago. Someone wearing a Wicked Weasel, for example, would be turned away with the explanation that this was a family pool/beach, although that never happened in the 8+ years I spent working as such. It seems people instinctively knew how to dress for such situations. JPRoth : Yup, KKK based models aren´t good, same goes for models with swastikas and so on...But it is another cup of tea, isn´t it? To an extent, yes. But where do we draw the line as far as what is "too far?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaane Feinwong Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 For comparison: Sarah Palin, Bikini and a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I don't think anything in malifaux compares to some of the stuff kids watch in music videos these days. I mean Britney Spears dressed up a school girl singing "hit me baby one more time" compared to Lady Justice who is actually wearing leather over most of her body, kneepads, ammo belts. Also as a male I'm not going to even try to guess what someone of the other sex finds offensive. Most of the time I will be wrong. A woman walks into a GW every bloke automatically assumes they will want to look at Elves and Sisters of Battle, why? because they assume that women want something pretty. Most of the time they actually liked Tyranids or Skaven. Therefore my general rule is don't decide that something is offensive because someone else might be offended by it. Decide something is offensive because you personally find it offensive. We have a situation where everybody spends their entire time second guessing themselves, rather than just doing what they like and letting other people tell them if they have overstepped the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Wow, Wicked Weasel was founded by bass player from Midnight oil, nice! And yes, that´s it. People feel, what is enough and what isn´t. And as you can hear here, Malifaux models aren´t over the line (for most majority), althought Wet nurse or Slaanesh Demon Prince from Ultraforge are. Problem solved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Also as a male I'm not going to even try to guess what someone of the other sex finds offensive. Most of the time I will be wrong. A woman walks into a GW every bloke automatically assumes they will want to look at Elves and Sisters of Battle, why? because they assume that women want something pretty. Most of the time they actually liked Tyranids or Skaven. Therefore my general rule is don't decide that something is offensive because someone else might be offended by it. Decide something is offensive because you personally find it offensive. We have a situation where everybody spends their entire time second guessing themselves, rather than just doing what they like and letting other people tell them if they have overstepped the mark. I agree, however this is a difficult subject and the're is no simple answer other that don't be as bad as the relic knights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I also find the KKK thing amusing. You have a universe which is based around the premise that humanity is paramont, anything that is slightly different is burnt as a heretic. You have a group in it that is based obviously based on being religious bigots, the models are based on the spanish inquisition. And your complaining that their fascist xenophobic religious zealots look like a group of fascist xenophobic religious zealots? Things happen in history, they are not always good. Is it healthy to pretend they did not happen. I can remember when White Wolf wrote their Wraith expansion for the Holocaust. It had a great intro at the start by a professor in hebrew studies. He said that the worse thing that could happen is that people forgot what happened. If the past needs to be put in the form of a movie or a Roleplaying game or even a cartoon to reach people then it's fine as long as the message is being seen by people. Therefore making historic models of certain groups fine. Collecting models of said groups is fine. The player's personal beliefs is what matters. And if you pretend things didn't happen they will just happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCoconutMonkey6X Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think this whole thread has de-evolved into a morale conflict. The way things were 10-15 years ago are miles behind the way things are today. That is just the way it is. Certain people will feel 1 thing is fine while others will not. No matter of examples and debate will really change that. It just comes down to agreeing to disagree. If you don't like the models, don't play with them. It's your right as a consumer. If your wife/girlfriend doesn't like them, no one is twisting her arm to play with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCoconutMonkey6X Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I also find the KKK thing amusing. You have a universe which is based around the premise that humanity is paramont, anything that is slightly different is burnt as a heretic. You have a group in it that is based obviously based on being religious bigots, the models are based on the spanish inquisition. And your complaining that their fascist xenophobic religious zealots look like a group of fascist xenophobic religious zealots? Things happen in history, they are not always good. Is it healthy to pretend they did not happen. I can remember when White Wolf wrote their Wraith expansion for the Holocaust. It had a great intro at the start by a professor in hebrew studies. He said that the worse thing that could happen is that people forgot what happened. If the past needs to be put in the form of a movie or a Roleplaying game or even a cartoon to reach people then it's fine as long as the message is being seen by people. Therefore making historic models of certain groups fine. Collecting models of said groups is fine. The player's personal beliefs is what matters. And if you pretend things didn't happen they will just happen again. QFT Battlefront's Flames of War has WWII German Nazis in it. Does that mean when my son walks in on my playing/painting, I need to throw a sheet over it all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I merely think that trying to pass it off as a feminist-friendly game is a little silly. I am curious as to when Wyrd officially stated that Malifaux was a "Feminist-Friendly" game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Ratty : Point taken. But it is a "serisous" topic, lets say. Maybe the word "inapropriete" would be suitable. I would give a very sour face to anyone, who would paint the Nazi symbols but as well the American flag on Warhammer models (We have one like this, his space marines are All star team, all black, with bling bling and so on), because it doesn´t FIT in the setting.I have no problem with camo, color pattern, but the symbols are pretty clear. There are a lot of other wargames, where you can play what you want (eg. Flames of war for the nazis), so why mess the game and setting and fluff with this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Wow, Wicked Weasel was founded by bass player from Midnight oil, nice! And yes, that´s it. People feel, what is enough and what isn´t. And as you can hear here, Malifaux models aren´t over the line (for most majority), althought Wet nurse or Slaanesh Demon Prince from Ultraforge are. Problem solved? Ok Wet Nurse is really Creepy and kinda over the edge... But I don't think any little kid would understand what is worse about her than the next snail on your Garden Path. The Slaanesh Demon Prince is over the line ? Because she has bare boobs ? But Lost Love leaking its guts is better ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the imp Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I am curious as to when Wyrd officially stated that Malifaux was a "Feminist-Friendly" game? They didn't. I mentioned that the game is probably the most feminist on the market . And I stand by that. Feminism is about independence and power, not about how a woman dresses. As to whether or not the game objectifies women, I'd say that certain figures definitely play up their sexuality, but on a whole the figure line includes women of all shapes, sizes, and ages; and therefore does not. Whether the models are appropriate for children is really another discussion in my opinion. And one that depends entirely on how you want to raise your kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 96p : Well, I like the model and for me it´s fine, but nude breasts can be lawfully considered 15+ / 18+, warrying from country to country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxXhayzelXxx Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Erm hold on one tick. I have been called a feminist, and i personally think this game IS JUST A GAME!!! i know bad hayzel. At the end of the day Malifaux isn't degrading women, to me they are doing the opposite. Making them powerful. Look at Pandora! She is a beast when in battle! Lady Justice?! awesome. Just because they want to show off their assets, like guys like to show off their pecs doesnt mean its a bad thing. And as Sketch says since when did malifaux state its "feminist friendly" This post should cease now i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I am curious as to when Wyrd officially stated that Malifaux was a "Feminist-Friendly" game? I'm curious as to when I accused Wyrd of doing so. If anything, I'd say that Malifaux would seem to be one of the most feminist hobby games on the market. At no time was I intending to imply that Wyrd described Malifaux as "feminist friendly," but rather that at least one individual on this thread had done so. It really isn't. It's a fun game, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCoconutMonkey6X Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I think it's pretty douche-like to tell someone how they have to paint their models. I mean, they put down the $$ for them, put them together, and put forth the effort to put whatever paint job they decided they wanted to see on them. We might not agree with the selection but since we did not contribute at all to the purchase/construction/painting of said models, it's just what it is - an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Erm hold on one tick. I have been called a feminist, and i personally think this game IS JUST A GAME!!! i know bad hayzel. At the end of the day Malifaux isn't degrading women, to me they are doing the opposite. Making them powerful. Look at Pandora! She is a beast when in battle! Lady Justice?! awesome. Just because they want to show off their assets, like guys like to show off their pecs doesnt mean its a bad thing. And as Sketch says since when did malifaux state its "feminist friendly" This post should cease now i think. The women has spoken, and I agree some of the most powerful people in Malifaux are women although I stil think talor should beable to buy a shirt that can fit her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaane Feinwong Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 If you want over the edge; Anime resin models. Those are just out right porn. These are the things I would not let my kids look at. Malifaux is perfectly acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Kaane : True. But (sorry to all Japanese who will I offend) japanesse anime based fandom IS weird. Hayzel : Boo hooo, putting water in this flame. We all know, that you´re right. Coconut monkey : I´m not saying about telling people how to paint their models, because yes, they are their models, but about a general good taste.When you play the game, you should agree with some setting of the fluff and so on. Maybe I´m another type of player, but when I saw some W40K eldar vehicles with airbrushed Sailormoon characters in school uniforms, I thought : OK, as a joke nice, but Holy Emperor, please, he doesn´t mean this serisous, does he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96p Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 maybe i´m another type of player, but when i saw some w40k eldar vehicles with airbrushed sailormoon characters in school uniforms, i thought : Ok, as a joke nice, but holy emperor, please, he doesn´t mean this serisous, does he? he ?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 In the grim dark future, super soldiers have been genetically created to fight for humanity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katcher Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Well, my google fu sucks, I can´t find it and it was old.....Sorry :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 I don't think anything in malifaux compares to some of the stuff kids watch in music videos these days. I mean Britney Spears dressed up a school girl singing "hit me baby one more time" compared to Lady Justice who is actually wearing leather over most of her body, kneepads, ammo belts. Echoing others, I don't want to assume that I understand the way women work, but.... If women want to express feminity it all gravy, and yet theres sometimes grief towards men who draw/sculpt/paint the same. I can acept the argument that there maybe arent enough "masculine masters", but there are some minions, mostly outcats and arcanists who fit this category. If there isnt enough appeal to women, maybe what is needed it some more "sexy" male masters, rather than toning down the rather awesome female range. Maybe its just that this hobby appeals to more men than women, and thus you would expect the model range to reflect this. There are many hobbies/activities which blatantly favour women over men; I dont view these as inherently sexist, just female centred/favoured. Look at GW; the new sisters of battle range is one of the mostly eagerly anticipated, and I'd be surp[ised if there is much flesh showing there..... Surely the whole point of a model is to capture/stereotype and objectify a variety of standards and characteristics...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micahwc Posted February 23, 2011 Report Share Posted February 23, 2011 Also Sonnia Criid Greatest Women Ever Seriously look her, she's not flashing off anything, she not flossing anything off, she is attractive, but that is because she physically fit and tend to attach beauty with physical fitness While I agree with this comment, I must also point out that she is smoking. Smoking is a horrible habit and I will not have my children exposed to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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