Women in Malifaux

[Bartali]

I've been trying to get my girlfriend into Malifaux, but she's completely turned off by the majority of the female characters in the game, namely comedy breasts and/or underwear. Lots of rolling eyes from her at the pictures of Lady Justice and the Taelor model in particular

For myself, I love that Malifaux has created some really strong and diverse female characters in the fluff, it just seems strange that the art and/or mini design lets itself down with stereotypical images of fantasy women.

[Wodschow]

The majority? I think the women of Malifaux dress far more decently than what you'd tend to find elsewhere within the miniature business..

As annoying as it might be I don't think there's much you/we can do about it. :/

And really.. Malifaux isn't bad at all.. ¬_¬

Edit: I do agree with you if we look upon the miniature business as a whole though.

[Halflingspy]

I love the fact that there are women models in Malifaux. I come from 40k, where the amount of female models ranges from 0 to 2 in a whole army. Here, we have a lot of different examples in each faction, and a lot of variation in story.

Are a lot of the models a bit too racy perhaps? I suppose so - Lady Justice doesn't need her front hanging out quite as much, and perhaps Viktoria's metal plate bikini could be beefed up a little bit. I'll take what I can get though, and if you read the fluff, you know the females aren't all vapid bimbos, and instead have a lot of variation. Kirai is a great, non-sexual female model, and I'm waiting for what Kaeris looks like.

For me, Malifaux is at least a step in the right direction.

[the imp]

Well, you can't make her like the game or its background. I'd try and take the argument away from the cheesecake appeal of some of the models, which is pretty clearly intended to bolster sales among the mostly male wargamer market, and point at the background of the characters.

For example, almost all of the women represented in the game are in positions of power. In fact, now that I think about it, all of the guild and neverborn masters in the first book are women. And most of them are actively asserting their own agendas. The most disempowered female figures are aligned with the ressurectionists, (undead hookers and drug addicted nurses); a faction pretty clearly painted as the bad guys. Kirai's introduction muddled that somewhat, in that she's a very powerful female master, but she's still painted as a victim of masculine oppression.

If anything, I'd say that Malifaux would seem to be one of the most feminist hobby games on the market.

[Uncle]

If anything, I'd say that Malifaux would seem to be one of the most feminist hobby games on the market.

It comes across as female-friendly until you actually look at things. At the point, we start to see a lot of Vallejo-ish ideals crop up.

I find it somewhat ironic that the burlesque performers of Colette and crew are actually some of the most conservatively dressed female in the game. Lady Justice, Perdita, Vicky, Colette, Lilith, Taelor,the Lelitu, Nekima (judging by the concept art), and the Nurses could all use less cheesecake models--they're all beautiful minis, but they come across as more than a little objectifying.

Looking at the background, we see shades of Frank Miller. Not everything is "whoreswhoreswhoreswhorsewhores," but there's certainly an undercurrent. You have undead prostitutes, living burlesque dancers (who are, it is hinted, also prostitutes, but this is hardly surprising), and at least one Master who is a former prostitute--Colette is arguable here, since it's not flat-out stated. Furthermore, females are regularly described as beautiful, whereas the males get far fewer such descriptions. In fact, the only real time where we get females who are not depicted and/or described as alluring, they are deliberate subversions in the form of old ladies--Abuela Ortega and Zoraida.

Even Rasputina is a little over-the-top in the "soviet cheesecake" style. Admittedly, the Silent Ones are an exception, but it's one of the few.

Is Malifaux female-friendly? Perhaps in comparison, but it has a long ways to go before it could be considered non-objectifying towards women.

[Doctor Amos]

The flip side of the coin being, of course, how would you know if it were equal? Fighting characters in general and across all genres tend to be, for obvious reasons, of a certain age and build. Dressing such a person in any kind of attire which enables them to move or, more importantly, implies that they are active and capable means something other than the Victorian dresses that the period would otherwise require.

Yes, there is a degree of objectification. It is endemic not only to the game, or wargaming, but to modern society at large and, for that matter, human nature.

...but, without a full rant, I think I'd better stop before we sprial into a humanities lecture.

[Mergoth]

I think it totally fits the "larger than life" style of the characters. Flip open an X-Men comic. What will you see? Strong female characters in skin-tight tops and massive breasts. I've yet to hear anyone complain about that objectifying women, though perhaps I just instinctually avoid those kind of people!

[Uncle]

The flip side of the coin being, of course, how would you know if it were equal? Fighting characters in general and across all genres tend to be, for obvious reasons, of a certain age and build. Dressing such a person in any kind of attire which enables them to move or, more importantly, implies that they are active and capable means something other than the Victorian dresses that the period would otherwise require.

In Rising Powers, the story detailing the conflict between Hamelin the Plagued and Colette has the latter in a men's work shirt and trousers, which is a far more practical outfit for combat and sewer crawling than her performer's clothing. Of course, that model wouldn't sell as much.

Likewise, Taelor is supposed to be an extremely strong woman, but her model is of a supermodel with bad stripper-boobs covered by the sort of tops which require quite a bit of artful scissors use to create. Lady Justice and Lilith fight in corsets and thigh boots, neither of which would allow someone to be active. And so on.

I know I'm being overly critical here, but Wyrd has made no huge strides towards "female equality" with Malifaux. About the best thing you can say is that there's a lot of cheesecake, as opposed to just one or two examples.

I think it totally fits the "larger than life" style of the characters. Flip open an X-Men comic. What will you see? Strong female characters in skin-tight tops and massive breasts. I've yet to hear anyone complain about that objectifying women, though perhaps I just instinctually avoid those kind of people!

You also don't see anyone trying to say that the X-Men are taking strides towards equality of the genders by incorporating the Thongmaster... Erm, Psylocke. Or calling it "one of the most feminist comics on the market."

[Edit: responding to Mergoth.]

Edited February 23, 2011 by JPRoth1980

[Ciaran]

JPRoth, I disagree.

In art showing a realistic image is far less important than evoking a certain emotion or series of emotions as a part of a conversation. They're showing characters that are very strong people, that are still able to be different sorts of feminine. Why should a company be expected to crank out a bunch of androgynous models when it's those differences, including physical, between people that make us all so precious?

1. I don't recall Collette and the Showgirls of her theater being referred to as prostitutes. I might have missed that, would you please point me to the passage so that I might be corrected? I DO recall the first timers at their show being pretty fired up, that just seems fairly realistic to me.

2. I've never seen a table top wargame with as many strong female characters that, as has been pointed, make their own way in the world, in their own ways.

3. There have been some popular culture additions in the last fifteen years that have included incredibly strong, empowering, female role models that have been just as... evocative in dress. They're perhaps even more degrading in your eyes as they feature real women dressed that way, yet many groups (including my LGSB friends) hold them up to be what women CAN become, if they work at it. That's right Lucy Lawless, I'm talking about you, Xena has not been forgotten!

[Mergoth]

Likewise, Taelor is supposed to be an extremely strong woman, but her model is of a supermodel with bad stripper-boobs covered by the sort of tops which require quite a bit of artful scissors use to create. Lady Justice and Lilith fight in corsets and thigh boots, neither of which would allow someone to be active. And so on.

[Edit: responding to Mergoth.]

It's a world with giant mechanical teddy-bears and floating whip wielding Hennifer Lopez', but the problem is impractical wargear and unrealistic dimensions?

[dgraz]

Seriously?

[Doctor Amos]

JPR: I wasn't trying to suggest that things as they stand were where they should be. I was simply raising the correllary. A tip on the side of caution. Perhaps a more forceful application of the same idea would be (and may all the relivant Heavens protect me from what I'm about to say) the idea of the burka. The idea that women cannot have sexual appeal or that drabness and blandless must be pressed lest the designer and viewer be thought of as sexist.

And, for the record, I support a woman's right to dress howsoever they please, just as I support a man's right to do the same. I am ill-equipped to judge just how I might desire my modes clothed with were I a woman. And, furthermore, how I might enjoy depections of men as well as women.

[tadaka]

I have been trying to get my wife playing games for years. The showgirls were the first ones I could even get her to look at for more then 30 seconds. She wont play but it sparked some intrest.

[Doctor Amos]

Men are, for good or ill, predisposed to competition and, for want of a better term, gaming. As far as I can tell, the cause is genetic rather than societal. I have known many women gamers, but they run generally between 5-30% of the gaming community.

(There's a notable outlier there, as well, with a gaming group that was solidly 50% women, but the group (men and woman) ran about 50-70% gay; so it's hard to judge.)

I'm open to disagreement here, just a lifetime of observation rather than a formal survay.

And I really hope I'm not throwing any unneeded fuel onto a potentially volitile subject. I just enjoy speaking frankly about such things.

[ilikepizza]

im sorry, but really? Obviously there is some 'cheesecake' in malifaux, but alot of it fits for good background and quite frankly, alot of demonic ideals throughout history have been of succubus's (demons of seduction) so of course some of the models will be a bit promiscuous, which certainly explains away why lilith and lilitu are the way they are. Besides, compared to some Miniature companies wyrd is VERY moderate, have you seen some of the things being sold by freebooters? or the old games workshop daemonettes? Besides which, without the freedom to make such Risque models, we wouldnt have such fantastic miniatures, im not personally a big fan of taelor, but Lady Justice and Lilith are some of the best female models ive seen and an awful lot of female characters, such as sonnia, are portrayed as fully dressed. quite frankly i think this thread is ridiculous, I can only honestly speak for myself, but im sure that most men who come onto this forum do not open their copy of the malifaux rulebook to oggle at the pictures and fantasize.

If your partner is of the opinion that this game is highly sexist and wont play it due to that, she's missed the point entirely - its a game, its not to be taken seriously. Wyrd are not making some overt sexist statement, they're simply producing amazing models off of generation old fantasy hero like stereotypes so that a wargame can be played between two people. If u want to get her to play the game then proxy models and use the rules if its really that much of an issue.

[Rathnard]

I find it ironic that nobody here is complaining about the super-buff, often shirtless male models in the range...

[XCoconutMonkey6X]

Since Lelu has no shirt on, showing his muscled chest, can I lay claim to be objectified then? lol.

*EDIT*

Dang it, rathnard! You posted before I could, lol!

Edited February 23, 2011 by XCoconutMonkey6X

[Vlad the Mad]

Is Malifaux female-friendly? Perhaps in comparison, but it has a long ways to go before it could be considered non-objectifying towards women.

Malifaux is objectifying towards everything in it's own way. It's one of its design points to build upon a stereotype and push it, and it certainly doesn't apply only to female characters. I think it is one of the aspects that makes people have a love-or-hate attitude towards it.

As for your girlfriend, there are a lot of miniatures that she might not like, but actually most of the female characters are not so over the top as they may seem (especially if you read the background as well).

I'd suggest she tries Sonnia Criid, both for the way she looks (a somewhat "professional" fashion sense) and her personality traits in the stories. She strikes me as somewhat closest to the "modern woman", especially as seen in her relationship towards Samael.

[Doctor Amos]

I was trying to imply just that, Rathnard, although I'm using my "tact font", which tend to be needlessly wordy. Or neededly wordy.

[Halflingspy]

I find it ironic that nobody here is complaining about the super-buff, often shirtless male models in the range...

Something that unfortunately happens is (from a sociology standpoint) that minorities, be it of a particular race, gender, or otherwise, can be thrown into stereotypes or particular roles and then are immediately seen as representatives of whatever they represent to others. A male shirtless figure is just shirtless, while a shirtless female character is <insert derogatory comment here>. If you've ever heard of the 'Madonna or the Whore' phrase, it's a term that constitutes that women are sometimes ONLY viewed in one of two ways by society.

Sorry, I'll put away my textbooks <.<

[tadaka]

This goes to show that women are not one or the other.

Lady justice is strong and willfull but looks a bit dirty. Shes in the middle like most women.

Kirai on the other hand is in many ways the girl who needs some one to take care of her. In this case her spirits.

Cridd is the hard core business women.

What ya know wyrd is not putting all there women as sexist objects they are all over the place and its a modern view of things. Could they put some more clothes on some of them yes but does not mean thats all there is to them. As another said point her toward cridd sounds like that is a master she can relate to.

Edited February 23, 2011 by tadaka

[Dolomyte]

People like to look at attractive things. be it women, men, cars. etc.

James bond is the best example. it was an attractive guy (in any iteration) driving a sexy car (aston martin) and sleeping with super hot women.

the majority of people just like attractive stuff more.

[tadaka]

Hey thats not true Warmahords has a whole army of trolls (Just a joke)

[Soundwave]

After coming from years of playing WHFB and WH40k I felt it was real refreshing to actually paint up some females (female models?..) for a change. I won't even bother going into the "objectified women" sort of deal, because to me, Malifaux is every stereotype multiplied with 100, which is what makes it...Malifaux.

I think the most "equal" miniature game I've played is Infinity, and even there the power armored females have high heels.

I also find boobs refreshing.

[Bartali]

I think it totally fits the "larger than life" style of the characters. Flip open an X-Men comic. What will you see? Strong female characters in skin-tight tops and massive breasts. I've yet to hear anyone complain about that objectifying women, though perhaps I just instinctually avoid those kind of people!

My girlfriend isn't a complete innocent in the ways of fantasy and sci-fi. She loves Halo Jones (early Alan Moore strip from 2000AD), Aliens (she named her cat Jonesy after both Halo Jones and Ripley's cat), Star Wars, Terry Pratchet etc

She's often watched me paint, and expressed an interest in painting after watching me paint my nth Deathwing Terminator for an upcoming 40k tourney - she did ask though "Where are the female ones ?". I suggested Malifaux due to the strong female characters, and interesting fluff. As mentioned previously though, on flipping through the rule book she's been put off by the art and minis.

I wonder if there's a conflict between the teams writing the background for Wyrd, and those doing the art and mini design,