Ramos as a Summoner – I can´t see it happen

[Zwergenkrieger]

Hi all,

I own a Ramos boxed set which I like to start painting in the near future. Therefore I´m thinking about possible tactics with him.

One thing that come to mind and is often named as a viable tactic is playing Ramos as a summoner. But I seriously can´t see this happen and I hope that someone is able to clarify this.

My thoughts in no particular order:

Ramos needs scrap counters to summon an Arachnid and Rusty Alice needs scrap counters too to summon Steampunk Abominations (shortly SPA).

The rules for scavengers say that scrap counters appear if a construct is killed. This means as long as there is no opposing construct Ramos is short of scrap counters. (Ok, he´s still able to recycle his constructs, but that can hardly be named as being a tactic: summoning.)

Well, Ramos is able to create his scrap counters, but this is a (2) action and therefore Ramos can do:

(2) => create scrap counter

(0) => summon Arachnid

That leaves Ramos with a (1) casting due to (+1) casting expert. meaning that Ramos isn´t able to move this turn which further slows down an already slow master.

Now Ramos could use a Brass Arachnid which gives reactivate to Ramos and now Ramos is able to create a second scrap counter this turn.

But when he uses Brass Arachnid, Ramos needs high cards with the right suit to be able to summon an Arachnid at all. That´s why a lot of players call for Mobile Toolkit to get access to the right suits. The downside then is: no reactivate for Ramos => no second scrap counter per turn.

Rusty Alice can´t create scrap counters at all, so how is she able to create SPAs at all?

If she starts creating SPAs I can see a chain of creating scrap counters / summoning SPAs happen: SPA have that cb trigger that creates a SPA when opponent is killed. If such an SPA is killed itself it leaves a scrap counter, meaning that you slowly increase the number of scrap counters / summoned constructs. But this seems to be really slow...

To sum it up:

1) creating scrap counters => no movement

2) movement => no scrap counters this turn => no summoning

I really can´t see how Ramos is able to get enough scrap counters to make summoning a viable tactic. Do I misunderstand the rules? Do I overlook something?

Thanks in advance for any advice / clarification!

ZK

Edited February 13, 2011 by Zwergenkrieger

[Wakshaani]

Well, don't forget about Electrical Creation. He can summon those as well, and, as constructs, they leave scrap counters as well. Summon one, explode it, use the scrap counter to summon a spider, lather, rinse, repeat. Even lets you move (1), summon (spellcast), detonate (1), and Spider (0) ... almost as if he was designed for it.

Otherwise, you should be starting with several constructs on the field and, as they die, you get more scraps as well. Might I suggest Ice Gamin, aka Iron Gamin, aka Brass Gamin, as awesome little guys for exactly that use?

[Ropetus]

Well, don't forget about Electrical Creation. He can summon those as well, and, as constructs, they leave scrap counters as well. Summon one, explode it, use the scrap counter to summon a spider, lather, rinse, repeat. Even lets you move (1), summon (spellcast), detonate (1), and Spider (0) ... almost as if he was designed for it.

Otherwise a good idea, but Electrical Creation is not a Construct but a Spirit and thus does not leave counters when killed.

Construct Recycling should work well enough with Ramos. I haven't seen Ramos use Salvage more than once or twice per game. Later those spiders start dropping quite fast as they're not the toughest of models, leaving you lot of material for summoning. You can also Controlled Detonate Arachnids that are near death for some damage and resummon those.

-Ropetus

[Koali]

I have seen Ramos with alice in Combo as a Summoner...

Just spam your opponent with spiders and SPAs...

2 new Minions each round is very powerful...

Nicodem can not produce much more... and he is definatly a caster...

BUT if you play it like this your crew is not that fast...

[Thunder_God]

The first game my friend and I played was Lilith versus Seamus. Well, even if you only replace your own dead models, and even not all of them, replacing a model that took quite an effort to put down with another fresh model, when the other side gets no replacements is pretty powerful.

That he summons does not necessarily mean he'll have more than he started with, but while the opponent's numbers dwindle, his do not.

[Soylent]

I'm fairly new to the game so take what I say with a grain of salt but you might try using the Student of Conflict as your totem. Sure it's a little pricier but giving Ramos Fast allows him to move up the field (2) Salvage Under Fire and then cast(0) Construct Spider. You could easily do this every other turn and that's not including grabbing any scrap counters in the later turns.

[Koali]

Sadly with the student you can not reaktivate him...

[Soylent]

True. SoC seems to have a more profound effect in early rounds where the Brass Arachnid really starts kicking in the later turns. I'd think you'd need Rusty Alice to pull off Stoke consistently so I'd see value in it in larger games where the SoC seems it would work better in smaller brawls.

[Dark Alleycat]

I would try and PM Genetic,he is a great Ramos player and does use him as a summoner so he can explain in more depth then i can. From what I have seen,Ramos is able to produce Scrap tokens quite a bit all by himself. he can also spam the electrical creations which you use as disposable bombs.

The Arachnid swarms which he can pretty much generate every turn almost are also insanely good.

Also,From what I have seen,its better to hang back with ramos and just send your constructs to do your dirty work.

[Zwergenkrieger]

I'd think you'd need Rusty Alice to pull off Stoke consistently so I'd see value in it in larger games where the SoC seems it would work better in smaller brawls.

And how should this work?

ZK

[Soylent]

And how should this work?

ZK

Rusty Alice gives you 2 extra Control Cards, increasing your chance to get 11+ :tomes, as well as getting a to cast Summon Spider. Unless you want to burn some SS.

[Genetic]

deploy ramos behind cover and out of sight.

Use the mobile tool kit to give him his + tome to Ca.

activate Ramos and salvage under fire. use casting expert create electrical creation.. use o ap spell create spider.

Use Rusty Alice to cast burn out on Ramos giving him reactivate.

Activate Ramos again, salvage under fire. create another spider.

next turn do it all again.. except the electrical creation its a unique so you only get 1 ( I found this out the hard way )

[LoboStele]

Yeah, the Reactivate trick with either Alyce or the Brass Arachnid is really the only way to effectively use Ramos as a Summoning master. Even without those tricks though, it's fairly easy to end up with 2-3 Spider Swarms by the end of the game.

As it is though, I find it's best to use both Ramos and Alyce in more varied ways though, as both Ramos' Electrical Fire spell and then Alyce's Pistol attack or Rust spell are pretty strong offensive measures. Seems a waste to keep them so far back that they wouldn't be able to use some of those things effectively.

[Dark Alleycat]

I suppose it would depend on what gang you were playing against. Against Ressurectionists,being able to make more troops faster then them is a sure way to demoralize lol.

With a couple spider swarms and an executioner running about it can cause untold amounts of havoc for your opponent.

[Zwergenkrieger]

Thanks all for writing your ideas and advice here! All these posts help me to get a better understanding of what Ramos is able to achieve during game, be it summoning, blasting his Arachnids or simply fire off his electrical fire.

That way Ramos seems to be more viable then I first started to realize. Though he seems to have some problems with strategies in which speed is required. I think I´m going to get some speedy Marcus crew in addition just to be able to compete in the speedy game.

Thanks all.

ZK

[LoboStele]

Yeah, pretty much anytime I need something with Speed, I'll end up going for Colette, though Marcus is a great option in that regard too. Don't discount Ramos too much though. Remember, the Spider swarms can move up to 8" and still make 2 attacks. The Steamborg has a HUGE charge. And late game, it's not tough to do a double-move with Ramos for 6", use a (0) to summon a spider (usually scrap laying around by this point), and then his (+1) Casting Expert for whatever else is needed. I can still usually get Ramos near or across the center line by the end of the game if needed.

[Genetic]

I suppose it would depend on what gang you were playing against. Against Ressurectionists,being able to make more troops faster then them is a sure way to demoralize lol.

With a couple spider swarms and an executioner running about it can cause untold amounts of havoc for your opponent.

Your just mad because i paralyzed Seamus 2 turns in a row with a swarm

[waferthinninja]

I think the Mobile Toolkit is the way forward if you want to use Ramos as a summoner. Otherwise it doesn't matter how much scrap you have lying around, the choke point will be the number of high :tomes you have. You will have turns where you draw none, and then he is sat twiddling his thumbs. With the toolkit you just need an 8 and a 7 of any suit to summon a spider and a creation, which you should manage almost every turn. It also frees up your big :tomes to power other abilities, like Joss' Brutal/Open Current and Ice Gamin's Sub Zero.

[Zwergenkrieger]

I think the Mobile Toolkit is the way forward if you want to use Ramos as a summoner. Otherwise it doesn't matter how much scrap you have lying around, the choke point will be the number of high :tomes you have. You will have turns where you draw none, and then he is sat twiddling his thumbs. With the toolkit you just need an 8 and a 7 of any suit to summon a spider and a creation, which you should manage almost every turn. It also frees up your big :tomes to power other abilities, like Joss' Brutal/Open Current and Ice Gamin's Sub Zero.

Well, if you don´t want to run Ramos mainly as a summoner, then I wonder wether the Brass Arachnid would be better or not. It seems to me that a reactivate granted by Stoke (Brass Arachnid) is of better use in a rather melee centric Ramos Crew where summing is only used to recycle those spiders. Isn´t it?

ZK

[Dark Alleycat]

Your just mad because i paralyzed Seamus 2 turns in a row with a swarm

Well for my first game,I think I did decently lol. but it does illustrate another way in which Ramos can be effective. The whole reason I recommended he talk to you about it was because I knew you were a good Ramos player.

[Genetic]

Well for my first game,I think I did decently lol. but it does illustrate another way in which Ramos can be effective. The whole reason I recommended he talk to you about it was because I knew you were a good Ramos player.

Wasn't that your second game???? and you only talk nice bout me because I pay you with left over corpses from lord chompy bits victims

[LoboStele]

OK, so I tried the Reactivating trick with Ramos/Alyce last night.

Game was against a Marcus crew, and we had Shared Plant Evidence for our Strategy. He ended up picking Eye for an Eye for one of his Schemes as well, so I knew I was going to want as many Significant models as possible.

So, I ended up going with Alyce, Joss, Steamborg, Mobile Toolkit and one Arachnid to start with. Used Burn Out on Turn 1 and Turn 2. Then on Turn 3 I made sure I had a high enough :tomes in my hand that I could Construct Spider, and I used the Toolkit's (2) Weld Together instead of granting the + :tomes Ca for Ramos. So, by the beginning of Turn 3, I then had 2 Spider Swarms, on top of everything else. This was still plenty of time for that 2nd Swarm to get across the board, hit the Razorspine with a Overwhelm trigger, then go hit a Shikome for the final kill hit, and then Interact with 2 pieces of terrain for the Strategy. So, more than enough time to properly get into the game.

By the end of the game, Ramos was back up to only 2 Wds on him, and I didn't have to burn any SS in order to heal him. I got lucky that my opponent was a semi-new player, and he was mostly going after the Strategy, rather than trying to kill my pieces. But overall, I felt like it worked pretty decently.

[Dark Alleycat]

Doesn't the Brass Arachnid give that reactivate as well,without the danger of dropping to one wound?

[LoboStele]

Doesn't the Brass Arachnid give that reactivate as well,without the danger of dropping to one wound?

You need a really high card for the Arachnid though. It needs an 11 :tomes to pull off Stoke. And then Ramos wouldn't have his extra :tomes for creating Spiders/Electrical Creations, so he would need 8 :tomes or higher for every spider. So, that means you need 3 cards of 8 :tomes or higher every round in order to pull it off. Not terribly easy.

[Genetic]

he does give reactivate, but the toolkit makes it much easier to summon things.. and is a great totem even though it cost 1 point more than the brass.