First time with Marcus, thoughts, review, mini batrep

[Buhallin]

We had our first almost-tournament this past weekend. It ended up fizzling, but I did get a good game in with the one other guy who showed up. Going into the tournament I had picked up a spread of stuff to try Marcus - my theory was that the variety of beasts he had available would provide good flexibility for the tournament. Even though the tourney didn't happen, I wanted to try him for the game.

My crew and strategies:

Marcus

Jackelope

Shikome

Sabretooth Cerberus

Silurid x2

Moleman

4 stones

Slaughter, Power Ritual, Breakthrough

His:

Lucius

Governor's Proxy

Ryle

Lawyer

Guild Guard Captain

Guild Guard x3

0 stones

Distract, Holdout

Rather than turn-by-turn, the highlights:

The Shikome is an awesome addition. She's fast to begin with, and Stalk Prey makes her insane. It also keeps her in combat once she's there, which helped me shut down Ryle (her prey) and combined with the Cerberus for a hunting partner, took the big guy out. She died to the return bashing, although she probably would have survived if it hadn't been a red joker.

The Jackelope is more a harrassing piece than anything else. It inflicted not a single point of damage, but absorbed a fair amount of attacks. It helped with Distract a lot, and since we had an Alone in the Dark, I'm kicking myself for forgetting it's Terrifying.

The Silurids didn't impress me all that much, but I'm willing to give them another chance. They got to combat quickly and effectively, but a combination of bad flips and insanely tough Guild Guards meant they didn't make a fair trade. Despite being the ones doing the charging, they killed one Guard while both dying.

The Moleman's Tunelling/Defend Me with Marcus is pretty sweet. He never popped up the entire game, but was well worth it.

And now, to Marcus... <sigh>

I'll disclaimer this by admitting a bad screwup - I forgot to touch my own corner for the Power Ritual, and had to back Marcus up to get it. That wasted time and caused problems. But even then, I was underwhelmed.

Marcus is the beast master, but I'm having a hard time finding any actual synergy with his beasts. He can heal them, but with only a 4" range and a rough flip required it never came into play for me. Especially with the Moleman he's certainly tough, but even with a good Wild Heart his damage isn't stunning. The Alpha trick looks awesome, but with it being both AP it's incredibly limited in its application. Even with the ideal setup for it (already in combat against Lucius) it was dicey, and my opponent managed to resist it.

But other than the potential to heal beasts, what does Marcus actually do to enhance them? Or how does he improve from having beasts? The other Arcanists are especially obvious - Ramos can recycle constructs, Rasputina has Mirror and Bite of Winter synergies, and Colette is almost TOO tied to her showgirls... But Marcus gets nothing.

Except... for the Raptors. It was a no-proxy tournament and I didn't want to buy three Austringers just to have them, but the Raptors may change things a bit. With cheap models who can enable Marcus' beast-dependent abilities, whole worlds may open up. Stare Down becomes a good general debuff, Alpha becomes standalone rather than requiring Marcus to combo with Feral to get to it... Definite potential there.

I know a lot of this is covered in the tactica, but wanted to restart some of the discussion with the new models and options available, and how to generate the needed synergy.

[Rathnard]

Nice writeup! I'm personally a bit of a fan of Marcus and would definitely like to see some more commentry on how best to use him. I've only played one game with him but have plenty of ideas on what to do with him.

Based on my experience using Zoraida, Silurids are a hit and run minion - if they finish their activation in combat or charge range of a decent melee minion then you're using them wrong. Make sure they keep their distance and only pounce on minions if you know you can either kill them or get away from them with survival instinct & leap.

While I haven't admittedly used them, I'm not at all impressed by Raptors. Their low Cb limits their use in combat, and I'd much rather give any :tombs I had to Marcus rather than possibly enabling the Raptor's Enrage trigger. If I want a cheap, fast minion, I think a trio of Night Terrors would be a better choice. They're not insignificant, resiliant for their cost, anti-shooting, potentially quite fast and even have a nice Wp debuff if it's needed.

Personally I'm not a fan of the Moleman. He's admittedly great for holding positions but I'd be reluctant to take him as a bodyguard, mainly because he'd slow Marcus down. If I want a bodyguard for Marcus, I'd consider the Waldgeist. He's expensive by comparrison but he's also much faster, more dangerous and can take a forest with him.

As for Marcus and his beast synergy, much of it tends to be pretty situational. His heal can be useful and if the opportunity presents itself, Alpha is potentially game-winning. You did miss out on Howl though. The Wp bonus is excellent when you're trying to deal with models that rely on Wp duels for protection (Terrifying, Pandora) or offense (Pandora again, Hamelin, plenty of others too). Silurids in particular become much better as well - without the buff to their crappy Wp 4 I wouldn't even contemplate trying to charge terrifying models with them (trust me, it'll end badly). It's also a huge debuff for your opponents non-beasts too - if you choose to take a Lawyer then his spells become much harder to resist if his target's been howled at.

I think Howl alone is why I'd take beasts with Marcus. Any non-beasts I'd take would be of the long-ranged sort, simply so I don't have to worry about them getting their Wp debuffed from Marcus' Howl.

EDIT: Unless a Wp duel is going to be easier than a melee strike, I generally wouldn't use Feral to enable Alpha. Marcus' melee stick turns things into beasts just fine.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Rathnard

[Buhallin]

I think Howl alone is why I'd take beasts with Marcus. Any non-beasts I'd take would be of the long-ranged sort, simply so I don't have to worry about them getting their Wp debuffed from Marcus' Howl.

Well, I didn't run into many Wp resists with the crew, so Howl didn't play much, but I can see your point. I can see it comboing especially well with the Cerberus' Roar, but that's a hard one to get off, and there's not many Terrifying options for Marcus to choose from. And since it takes one of his two AP, it becomes a very difficult choice of when to use it.

EDIT: Unless a Wp duel is going to be easier than a melee strike, I generally wouldn't use Feral to enable Alpha. Marcus' melee stick turns things into beasts just fine.

Unless I'm missing something, you almost have to use Feral. That's why it's so hard to pull off, and why I like the potential for the Raptors. Alpha is a 2 AP spell, and Marcus has no general AP boosters, just Instinctual. So the only way for Marcus to get Alpha on an opponent who isn't a beast to start with is to use either Feral or the immediate strike from Serpent or Tiger. That may be better, but it'll depend on the situation - it'll take both of your 0 actions to do it that way, as opposed to potentially saving one for a Stare Down after making them Beastly.

Maybe trying to use the Moleman is part of my problem - combined with my idiotic move of forgetting to touch home base for the Power Ritual, Marcus was way out of position to support the faster beasts.

On the Raptors... I certainly see your point. But running them in 3s they aren't insignificant, and they're blindingly fast. Their built-in flock avoids the Canine Remains problem with their insignificant removal by ensuring they can all stay together well. Up a flank, with good Df and Ht 1, they're almost an automatic touch for Sabotage or a corner (maybe two) for Power Ritual. I see them having an advantage in card threat, too... Your opponent knows what Marcus can do with a Beast, so they're not going to want to let anything hit. That can mean they'll be cheating hits they'd probably just absorb otherwise, and having to do it 2-3 times in a turn. AND with two annoying triggers on there it's not just all about the :tomes.

It's an interesting enough potential that I'm going to give them a shot once I can get them cheap.

[Rathnard]

I can see it comboing especially well with the Cerberus' Roar, but that's a hard one to get off, and there's not many Terrifying options for Marcus to choose from.

Well the terrifying beasts available to Marcus are the Razorspine, Shikome and Rogue Necromancy. And aside from the Cerebrus, other beasts that benefit from a lower enemy models Wp are the Lawyer, Shikome (again) and Rogue Necromancy (also again).

And since it takes one of his two AP, it becomes a very difficult choice of when to use it.

True, but every spell and ability Marcus has (Wild heart excepted) is situational anyway. For instance I know if I was facing Pandora, I'd be howling every turn I could.

So the only way for Marcus to get Alpha on an opponent who isn't a beast to start with is to use either Feral or the immediate strike from Serpent or Tiger. That may be better, but it'll depend on the situation - it'll take both of your 0 actions to do it that way, as opposed to potentially saving one for a Stare Down after making them Beastly.

I suppose what that comes down to is whether you want to use Wild Heart or Stare Down in combination with Alpha. The flip from Stare Down is massively powerful both on the offense and defense, but the increased damage & Df from Wild Heart is probably the better choice if you actually need to cause some damage and/or there's going to be a few non-beasts threatening Marcus. Personally I see Wild Heart being more useful most of the time.

On the Raptors... I certainly see your point. But running them in 3s they aren't insignificant, and they're blindingly fast.

Well they're certainly fast, no doubt about that. But it doesn't take that much effort to kill off one and once that happens, you've got two insignificant Raptors who are unable to claim objectives. They can still try and enrage things of course, but I'll discuss that later. By comparison, Night Terrors are slower (unless you take three for a 15" total move) and won't companion. But with Spirit and Hard to kill they're harder to take out than the Raptors and when a player does kill one, the others can still take objectives. Furthermore, their ability to pull other Night Terrors along with them makes it easier for them to do (1) and especially (2) interact actions.

I see them having an advantage in card threat, too... Your opponent knows what Marcus can do with a Beast, so they're not going to want to let anything hit. That can mean they'll be cheating hits they'd probably just absorb otherwise, and having to do it 2-3 times in a turn. AND with two annoying triggers on there it's not just all about the :tomes.

The Distract trigger isn't that great IMO. For it to be of use you basically need to hit with a :masks (Which you also want for Alpha), while your opponent has at least two crappy cards on their discard pile, including those he just flipped for Df. So that leaves the Enrage Trigger.

The problem with Enrage is that with Cb 4, your chances of getting a tombs for trigger AND beating your opponents flip is not great. Furthermore, Marcus could be using any :tomes you want to cheat for his Wild Heart spell, which is often going to be a much better use of that card. You're right in that it can sometimes force your opponent to needlessly burn cards but honestly, I don't see it as something you can rely upon.

That said, if you want to try the Raptors then by all means do so! I'd be very happy to be proven wrong.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Rathnard

[Ropetus]

you should note that the the Fate Deck does not include Tombs, only Tomes . There definitely are some Tombs in Malifaux but not in the Fate Deck no...

What I would like to know is: What does Marcus need high :tomes for? He has all the :tomes he needs for Cb and Df Triggers built in and he can Trigger Surge out of only Wild Heart and Feral, the first is better cast with a low :tomes and the latter is very rarely used. Alpha cannot Trigger it without a lucky Soulstone flip. Marcus usually only needs one low to medium :tomes for Wild Heart and that's it.

At least I think the Raptors look like a fine investment. You would preferably activate them after Marcus has moved into position with Stare Down active and target the big nasty models with them. Those usually have a lowish Df making it relatively easy to hit. Even if they don't accomplish much in combat, they only cost one SS more than a Silurid and this purchase gives you three very fast objective grabbers.

Besides, the point of Enrage seems to be card drain for your opponent. Enraged enemies will either turn close to useless with active Stare Down and Enrage, discard cards to get rid of the effect or cheat to dodge the Raptor attacks. If I can make my opponent discard most of their Control hand to a few attacks from my cheapest models, I think they have done their job.

-Ropetus

[Buhallin]

I probably wouldn't cheat to get the :masks for Distract, but if it happens to come up randomly it's still not a bad trigger, and that gives you two suits that the Raptor can play off of.

And if you've got the flock going, they play very well off each other. If one gets a Distract off, it lets you stack the deck for the next one in line to get the hit with Enrage, which is what you really want.

I certainly agree that the Night Terrors are nice too, and plan to try both.

[Rathnard]

Okay, okay, so with Marcus only needing low :tomes for Wild Heart you can probably afford to burn a high :tomes to trigger enrage with a Raptor...assuming you have another :tomes in hand or you don't need to get that third ability from Wild Heart. When you factor in the fact that some of those nasty melee minions have a low Df anyway, I'll conceed that the Raptor probably stands a decent chance of turning things into beasts.

That said, while the Raptors have their place with Marcus, I'd still say that Night Terrors are better objective grabbers than Raptors. I'd definitely like to hear how they go in-game - right now it's still all theory.