Hamelin the Plagued Advice

[Ratty]

The trick with Pandora is to use the opponents disadvantages against them. Build up a hand of Crows over the first 2 or 3 turns and don't give Hamelin many targets or card draw. I've you can use ranged abilities like headshot on his Rat Catcher it stiffles his hand even more... Then when he closes in activate Pandora and use her trigger multiple times to cause Hamelin and his Rat Catchers to flee.. once the rats are no longer in their bubble you can clean them out.

Lelitu is also a really good choice. As rats don't block movement you can pull the Rat Catchers away from the Rodent armour and the Gamble them to death.

[Thunder_God]

Obedience is a poor man's Obey, which works for the faction's respawn.

TBH, when I look at Hamelin lists, I worry they'll keep getting out-activated due to how rats activate, though rat-catchers cycling them can help. The enemy should try to kill the rat-catcher, though the rat-armour will make that slightly harder, prolly. Or make 'em flee.

And WUWU, Sandwich gave information, and we gave concrete replies, mostly to the effect that the game was played wrong.

Prodigal, the blight was a mis-reading of the rules I also shared, where each blight counter added 1 damage, where it should be binary - if you have blight counters, any amount, add 1 damage.

[Dolomyte]

As to the OP.

Hamelin, the Plague, is considered VERY broken by many people, such as everyone who has ever played against or as him, myself included.

Few people feel the need to create a Tactica because we understand that Wyrd will be making a TON of changes to balance his crew, so writing one now would be very silly.

But if you are looking for a general outline of how to work Hamelin,

Start with at least 2 Ratcatchers, Nix, and at least 2 Stolen.

Fill the rest of that gap with Rats.

Then pretend that none of your crew, control cards, or Soul Stones are important at all, instead acting impulsively and expend great amounts of resources to kill whatever it is you please.

This would be where you stated Hamelin was unbeatable. Those exact words? no

that implication? yes

Im not sure if anyone pointed this error out to you yet, but stolen are unique, you can only have one of them on the board at a time.

Also note fate is meaningless and useless toy cannot, well, should not be used on the same action, if you were to use them both fate is meaningless would ignore the ++ to his attack flip so you sacrificed a rat for nothing. they also apply only to a single action.

I also think useless toy does not affect spell casts, but I would need to search the rules forum to confirm *it says gives him a plus plus to attack and defense flips, casting is a casting flip, IIRC* so I hope to hell your initial hand was awesome and can sustain his crew past killing one or two of the opponents models.

If you dont know how to counter him he is going to be a destructive force, if you do (focused strikes, defensive stances, lures) he is actually a pretty low powered master

two final points

Sandwich - never take a master with only 1 soul stone in his pool, especially when said master should only have a card or two of questionable strength in his hand. if you deny yourself the ability to prevent damage or heal damage when someone kills your lone stolen hamelin's defense of 5 is going to screw him.

Everyone who wants to counter hamelin - say it with me kids, cooooonvict gunslinger. the army naturally has to brick up, which means he's discarding 5 or 6 cards a turn from his hand (he wont have that many) or his isht is paralyzed. Game. set. match.

[Ratty]

This would be where you stated Hamelin was unbeatable. Those exact words? no

that implication? yes

Im not sure if anyone pointed this error out to you yet, but stolen are unique, you can only have one of them on the board at a time.

They are not Unique it was a misprint.

[Dolomyte]

Yes, I'm inexperienced with Malifaux, but I've also been playing war games and CCGs for nearly 15 years, so I'm not an idiot when it comes to game mechanics.

Now, Sand made a few statements regarding Hamelins balance and detractors respond with "Give me details", when details are given, the responses are in broad generalizations. Sound analysis doesn't work that way. Just because you say Hamelin isn't over powered doesn't make it so; try and at least give some play examples, for the benefit of the whole community.

Since Pandora is my main master at the moment (Colette soon to follow, so I may comment on that in the future), I'm curious on what tactics you are employing to "wipe out a decent hamelin player in one round"? What happens if Pandora becomes insignificant? From a relatively easy CC the main power behind your crew can be made irrelevant (and don't forget Hamelin has higher WP than Pandora), and Hamelins crew will most certainly outnumber yours, and is more mobile -with the exception of Pandora herself- in regards to achieving schemes and strategies.

Facts have been presented for Hamelin being too powerful, namely, higher model/activation count, all models are scoring models, nearly unkillable, and the ability to make your models irrelevant in the encounter. How specifically do you counter those advantages?

I'm sorry if you thought I was calling you an idiot, I just literally was confirming what you said that you had not played pandora a lot. she is a finesse caster with a box set that I personally do not feel is near her ideal army. I overlooked her for much longer then I should have based on the lackluster synergy of her box set.

What happens if Pandora becomes insignificant?

There is no reason she should become insignificant. two reasons why. firstly, Martyr. have a sorrow or two linked to her and even if he manages to successfully cast or attack her *Yes he has a slight edge wp wise, but if he is cheating he is losing cards he wont get back, as well as him having a limited soulstone pool* she can chuck the spell on to them, doing a big fat nothing, or if he used the gun he can do damage to them, but he would be in range of retaliation and it would take a few shots to kill them.

and Hamelins crew will most certainly outnumber yours, and is more mobile.

True, however, assuming your using a force of stitched together, pandora, doppleganger, a sorrow, and whatever else *usually jack daw for *. you can one shot every single model in his army except hamelin and the rat catchers. I would kill nix first, because he is the only real damage threat. Rats cant hurt jack daw *can't focus strikes*, and should not be able to attack pandora or doppleganger *wp dual, which they lose and take damage enough to kill them from *pandora and doppleganger*

I would play the stitched cautiously until about turn three when the hamelin player is out of cards and you can kill him in two good hits *jack daws no cheat no stone aura helps greatly with this*

-with the exception of Pandora herself- in regards to achieving schemes and strategies.

Bodyguard and kidnap should be a guarunteed 4 victory points for you. I would need to see the strategy and play the game to tell you how to win it. those are too dictated by the flow of the game.

He is going to have to bring hamelin to your army if he wants to kill anything, hamelin is the key to respawning everything as well, so wait for turn three then gank him with the stitched. If he hides hamelin in his deployment zone kill the stuff he sends after you, rats only come back with rat catchers nearby, so if he is sending rats to their death let him, if he sends a catcher use the stitched to kill it first then worry about rats. Don't cheat, focus strikes or focus spells.

[Dolomyte]

They are not Unique it was a misprint.

Fair enough, tons of those. Still, 1 wd with low defense and will, should be easy enough to kill. doubt he will have more then three of them.

[WUWU]

Thanks for the tips Dolomyte. After rereading some strategies on the forum last night, I'm actually fairly confident in this match up, as there are some tactics I didn't fully appreciate with Pandora (okay, I didn't realize Mental Anguish was that broken). I guess a stronger case could be made that Pandora is too powerful, haha.

Well, hopefully we can get some more play testing in with Hamelin on Thursday and let you guys know how it turns out.

[Sandwich]

I'm sorry if you thought I was calling you an idiot, I just literally was confirming what you said that you had not played pandora a lot. she is a finesse caster with a box set that I personally do not feel is near her ideal army. I overlooked her for much longer then I should have based on the lackluster synergy of her box set.

What happens if Pandora becomes insignificant?

There is no reason she should become insignificant. two reasons why. firstly, Martyr. have a sorrow or two linked to her and even if he manages to successfully cast or attack her *Yes he has a slight edge wp wise, but if he is cheating he is losing cards he wont get back, as well as him having a limited soulstone pool* she can chuck the spell on to them, doing a big fat nothing, or if he used the gun he can do damage to them, but he would be in range of retaliation and it would take a few shots to kill them.

and Hamelins crew will most certainly outnumber yours, and is more mobile.

True, however, assuming your using a force of stitched together, pandora, doppleganger, a sorrow, and whatever else *usually jack daw for *. you can one shot every single model in his army except hamelin and the rat catchers. I would kill nix first, because he is the only real damage threat. Rats cant hurt jack daw *can't focus strikes*, and should not be able to attack pandora or doppleganger *wp dual, which they lose and take damage enough to kill them from *pandora and doppleganger*

I would play the stitched cautiously until about turn three when the hamelin player is out of cards and you can kill him in two good hits *jack daws no cheat no stone aura helps greatly with this*

-with the exception of Pandora herself- in regards to achieving schemes and strategies.

Bodyguard and kidnap should be a guarunteed 4 victory points for you. I would need to see the strategy and play the game to tell you how to win it. those are too dictated by the flow of the game.

He is going to have to bring hamelin to your army if he wants to kill anything, hamelin is the key to respawning everything as well, so wait for turn three then gank him with the stitched. If he hides hamelin in his deployment zone kill the stuff he sends after you, rats only come back with rat catchers nearby, so if he is sending rats to their death let him, if he sends a catcher use the stitched to kill it first then worry about rats. Don't cheat, focus strikes or focus spells.

I'm just quoting this one because if I were to quote both it'd be a massive reply.

Part uno,

I never once said Hamelin was unbeatable, or implied it in the slightest.

I said he was broken.

I stand by that.

Can WUWU beat me? Hell yes he can.

Is it going to be annoying as hell? Yes.

He's got a slight advantage over other masters because Pandora has 0 reliance on any kind of counters and is also a little tipped off the scale.

I personally think it'll be fun.

If I were to show him how truly broken Hamelin was, he'd have to run a Ressurectionist / construct heavy list.

...

Or in other news, take Lady J's specific scheme for example, she cannot ever achieve it.

Why? Hamelin will 100% never drop a Corpse Counter.

--

Also, you did not even read the post you originally quoted.

When I play, I treat my models, master, SS, and cards as if they are all worthless.

Unit value in a Hamelin list = pulling punches and wasting time, period.

[Dolomyte]

I never once said Hamelin was unbeatable, or implied it in the slightest.

I said he was broken.

I stand by that.

- Your call, I disagree, but opinions are like a-holes, all of us have them.

He's got a slight advantage over other masters because Pandora has 0 reliance on any kind of counters and is also a little tipped off the scale.

I personally think it'll be fun.

- 90% of the masters have no reliance on counters at all. even mcmourning relies on generating his own body parts. which hamelin does not stop.

If I were to show him how truly broken Hamelin was, he'd have to run a Ressurectionist / construct heavy list.

...

- you can't call a master broken by building a list that specifically blows against him. I could build that list for every master in the game, hell, i might be able to make an army marcus could be a worthwhile choice against.

Or in other news, take Lady J's specific scheme for example, she cannot ever achieve it.

- Don't take that scheme. also would not take it against a construct list, or spirits

Also, you did not even read the post you originally quoted.

When I play, I treat my models, master, SS, and cards as if they are all worthless.

Unit value in a Hamelin list = pulling punches and wasting time, period.

- I dont understand this at all, are you saying the rest of the army is irrelevent and hamelin does everything? or are you saying that when you play you just go balls to the wall and don't worry about resource management?

[Sandwich]

I never once said Hamelin was unbeatable, or implied it in the slightest.

I said he was broken.

I stand by that.

- Your call, I disagree, but opinions are like a-holes, all of us have them.

He's got a slight advantage over other masters because Pandora has 0 reliance on any kind of counters and is also a little tipped off the scale.

I personally think it'll be fun.

- 90% of the masters have no reliance on counters at all. even mcmourning relies on generating his own body parts. which hamelin does not stop.

If I were to show him how truly broken Hamelin was, he'd have to run a Ressurectionist / construct heavy list.

...

- you can't call a master broken by building a list that specifically blows against him. I could build that list for every master in the game, hell, i might be able to make an army marcus could be a worthwhile choice against.

Or in other news, take Lady J's specific scheme for example, she cannot ever achieve it.

- Don't take that scheme. also would not take it against a construct list, or spirits

Also, you did not even read the post you originally quoted.

When I play, I treat my models, master, SS, and cards as if they are all worthless.

Unit value in a Hamelin list = pulling punches and wasting time, period.

- I dont understand this at all, are you saying the rest of the army is irrelevent and hamelin does everything? or are you saying that when you play you just go balls to the wall and don't worry about resource management?

It took me like 5 minutes to realize this was a reply. D:

It's not my opinion, it's a fact.

In fact there were several times during our (WUWU and I's) game where I thought "ohshi-" because things weren't going the way they usually do.

Hamelin is not unbeatable (if you're tallying, this is the grand total of four times I've stated this blatantly.) He just has mechanics that make other crew mechanics null and void.

On topic

I worded that whole "0 reliance" dealy wrong.

Let me completely change my argument with this comprehensive list as to why Hamelin is broken.

-GUILD-

Perdita -

Perdita's immune to Influence is capable of being removed.

Hamelin is the only real threat.

Hamelin can make anyone you take insignificant and then all you have left to shoot at is rats (Who are great at not being shot for some stupid reason, like Tiny.) Nix, and Rat Catchers.

Played right(i.e. when I played Perdita) your entire crew will be unable to target Hamelin while he pops Stolen left and right to finish his strategies.

Lady Justice

A melee centric crew with relatively low WP?

What is Lady J's Wp anyway?

I spread Blight Counters left and right and nommed on Lady J for a while.

Sonia Criid

An AoE master should do great, right? No.

I actually ran Hamelin up and, (via Fate is Meaningless) Severe(d) her in the mouth, and then swarmed my objective, all before the end of the third turn.

C.Hoffman

A counter dependant master. Best strategy was to pile rats onto the Guardian(Blight Counters add +1 Wd, not DG. So rats always do a minimum of 2 Wd. Impetuous gives them a to the Cb of their 4 Cb teeth. So, well, he died quickly.)

Insignificants all around the house, and then counter denial led to a massively frustrating and very boring game.

- Resurrectionists -

Nicodem -

Nicodem's Wp is equal to Hamelin's cast. Problem? (0)Useless Toy + Understand the Soulless. Once again, the ability to treat your master as worthless against someone whose master bolsters the whole crew obviously led to another boring and landslide victory.

The rat Catchers with Armor 2 kept Killjoy busy, though Sebastian did do a decent job of clearing out rats, (Though they immediately respawned, as Hamelin was still within 6".)

Seamus -

Not even my favorite little serial killer matches up with Hamelin.

Hamelin's 8 Wp matches the Belles Lure, and who cares if I get a free walk?

CC denial all day, of course. Obviously I couldn't actually kill Seamus, but he was insignificant by turn 3, and the rest, well, what do you think?

McMourning -

Fate is Meaningless + Pipes(Cb 7 to Df 4) meant that McM was wherever the hell I wanted him at all times of day. He was basically just another one of my units as I used him to kill his frankensteins and then destroyed him with the rats. (Max damage he can do to them is 2, and with 9 of them piling on top of him + Impetuous and a Cb 4, matching his Df, meant there was no hope.) Possibly the easiest crew to destroy.

Kirai -

Denied Seishin, dead by the third turn. Rest of her crew fell apart very quickly. No problems at all.

Arcanists -

Marcus -

Totem rendered unimportant, half of his crew was unable to target Hamelin outright (ht 1) other half had crap for Wp and was made insignificant. The rest, well, you know.

Rasputina -

Another AoE master dismantled due to low Df. I actually Red Jokered when I killed her, so I can't factor that in. I'm sure that once Hamelin got on top of her, there wasn't any hope anyway.

Ice Golem was surprisingly hard to take down, but died nonetheless with no trivial losses on my part. (He killed three Rat Catchers before he dropped. But I managed to stay topped off with two out 90% of the time.)

Ramos -

Executioner was insignificant as soon as he came into range, the rest of the crew fell quickly after.

Colette -

Never played a Colette versus Hamelin. When WUWU's comes in, that'll probably change.

Neverborn -

Lilith -

Troublesome master. Crew was dismantled due to low Df and relatively useless Wp. (silly matures and their 4 Df.) Nekima was a huge problem, and never died and never became Insignificant, Black Blood shaman bit it due to a double sever on a rat (red joker.) So can't comment on his durability. Second game was a cookie cutter 25SS and was far less impressive without Nekima. :[

Pandora -

Awesome game, felt balanced. Can't say much else. 3 VP turn one doesn't sit right with me, but it really could've gone either way. I'm not sure what that says about Pandora, though.

Zoraida -

I've never played against Zoraida, I hope to someday.

LCB / Dreamer -

Ridiculously easy. The Dreamer's biggest tactic is to bomb. Problem? Being outbombed. The Dreamer's high WP was daunting at first, but both his and LCB's low Df led to two very quick death (In one rat activation sequence, actually.) Next game played was worse. Coppelius actually managed to paralyze Hamelin. so I killed Hamelin, respawned, and then murdered the Dreamer with Coppelius.

Outcasts -

Vickis -

Fun for the first turn, then rats started spawning like mad. The game actually ended with no rats in play due to Whirlwind. It was hilarious, fun game.

Som'er -

Outswarming a swarmer is always fun, but he was forced to stack pigs and mosquitoes so it was a much smaller crew. Pigcharges ended with an isolated and dead master very quickly. Pigs were all made insignificant and forced to charge rats and Nix all day.

Leveticus -

A very sad game for such a powerful master. He couldn't really get any models and his guys were quickly made insignificant and dead. It wasn't much fun for either of us as usually as his core mechanics were wasted away.

His 2 Wd or less deal worked wonders for the first two turns until his Waifs were butched before he died, he was either forced to not act to save his hide, or die and fail quickly. He tried to last but was overwhelmed by rats quickly and then his crew fell to pieces.

Hamelin -

Would be hilarious. No one else wants to play Hamelin currently, so this game will have to wait.

------------

I meant I have no care at all for resource management when playing as Hamelin and usually end up dominating the field quickly.

[tadaka]

C.Hoffman

A counter dependant master. Best strategy was to pile rats onto the Guardian(Blight Counters add +1 Wd, not DG. So rats always do a minimum of 2 Wd. Impetuous gives them a to the Cb of their 4 Cb teeth. So, well, he died quickly.)

Insignificants all around the house, and then counter denial led to a massively frustrating and very boring game.

What?

Counter dependant? Hoff needs no counters. If he gets them its nice but he hardly needs them. Hoff is actualy one of the best options to kill off Hamlin.

Peacekeaper and hunters are great for pulling hamlin away from his stolen and killing him. Ratcatchers same thing pull them in they lose armor and go down like a chump.

Hamlin is a very powerfull master you are right but if you played this match up you need to try it a few more times.

Hamlin is good but imho just joins a the couple of other top tier masters who could probably use a nurf.

All kind of pointless tho Hamlin and or his crew will probably change a bit some where. Personaly I am just thrilled I have an ooutcast option to go with levi to face the crews that levi sucks vs.

[Sandwich]

Agreed, deleting that section until I have seen a broader spectrum of C.Hoffman.

How would you play C.Hoffman against Hamelin?

What list would you suggest?

[Ratty]

It took me like 5 minutes to realize this was a reply. D:

Kirai -

Denied Seishin, dead by the third turn. Rest of her crew fell apart very quickly. No problems at all.

Er how is she denied Seishin. SEISHIN are not a summon they are a place.. So every single rat killed gives you one. With the ease of Killing rats your laughing.

[tadaka]

Yes I am in agreement with the rat. Kirai is another of the very top masters to fight hamlin. Every time rat swarm dies any where close to her she gets a full set of shisin. I just used models to pick off his stolen and then went for hamlin. He could not sac the stolen be cause it just got me closer to my goal. His only option for sac models was rats.

Basic things to think about with hamlinwhen playing hoff.

Get try and get your crew just outside of his range. This puts you out of range of the rats and means he has to walkforward to hit you. The down side to hamlin is his crew must stay together or it falls apart. The rats get out of range they die and dont come back. Rat catchers get 2 far from rats they lose armor. Hamlin gets 2 far from stolen he cant come back.

Use ryle to pick off stolen he unlike all most every model in the game ignores there wp test. He also has amazing range to do so. This model is great for forcing hamlin to move to you.

[Ratty]

Yes I am in agreement with the rat. Kirai is another of the very top masters to fight hamlin. Every time rat swarm dies any where close to her she gets a full set of shisin. I just used models to pick off his stolen and then went for hamlin. He could not sac the stolen be cause it just got me closer to my goal. His only option for sac models was rats.

Not to mention Kirai doesn't do damage, so making her insignificant does nothing much, and every other model in her crew can be saced and re summoned. I generally summon her main hitter Ikiryo most turns, so it's not like she's going to remain insig. Stick on top of that the fact that she can drop Jack Daw into the middle of your rats and Hamelin and stop him cheating. Most of his force can't even touch Jack Daw and rats run from terrifying models in general.

[Sandwich]

Actually, no you're right.

Thinking back to that game she did get Seishin, and Kirai actually died at the end of the fifth turn, sorry.

It was still the Rat Swarm that did her in, though.

14 rats, I believe...?

Regardless, Seishin eating damage for you against 9+ rats just cannot save poor Kirai. :[

She didn't take Jack, though that probably would've been hilarious.

Though she did have something scary, it was terrifying 13 I believe.

Do not remember what.

I saved the high cards to cheat the Terrifying for the Catchers and then murdered my rats to remove the scariness.

Though I do remember the 6" range missing a couple and them and then those rats being useless for a while until I sacked them for Useless Toy or whatever I could do at the time.

I killed her with the Rats just by sheer number, but I do recall she planted her totem in the top of a house and that saved her ass in the third turn, and then she did a great job with the mask lady/men ripping them to pieces.

Datsueba did some dirty work too with her AoE thing.

[Thunder_God]

Well, what about a Seamus terrifying crew? Or Kirai for that matter.

If you have 2-3 models with terrifying, the rats will run away. Sure, you can sacrifice them to cancel that, but the new rats will need to re-take those tests. Even with 14 rats, and 2-3 tests per rat, you're unlikely to make more than a couple of tests. Especially if the enemy places his models in such a way that you'll be taking at least 2-3 tests no matter what you do.

This is doubly true for Seamus with his aura.

[tadaka]

Terror spam works very well vs Hamlin. Even if catchers kill them new models must take tests. God help you if the other guy has mutiple 2 or 3 inch terror causing models. For example dreamer. You will want to cry when an an alip bomb hits you and he makes all nightmares have terror. You cant spread out and he will jack you up if you stay lumped up. Rat catchers insta gib from alips is not fun at all.

[tadaka]

Actually, no you're right.

Thinking back to that game she did get Seishin, and Kirai actually died at the end of the fifth turn, sorry.

It was still the Rat Swarm that did her in, though.

14 rats, I believe...?

Regardless, Seishin eating damage for you against 9+ rats just cannot save poor Kirai. :[

She didn't take Jack, though that probably would've been hilarious.

Though she did have something scary, it was terrifying 13 I believe.

Do not remember what.

I saved the high cards to cheat the Terrifying for the Catchers and then murdered my rats to remove the scariness.

Though I do remember the 6" range missing a couple and them and then those rats being useless for a while until I sacked them for Useless Toy or whatever I could do at the time.

I killed her with the Rats just by sheer number, but I do recall she planted her totem in the top of a house and that saved her ass in the third turn, and then she did a great job with the mask lady/men ripping them to pieces.

Datsueba did some dirty work too with her AoE thing.

A point of note given that he had 14 rats. Make sure hamlin is not getting rats of shisin they auto sac when they die if kirai did not use her 0 action to change that.

[Sandwich]

Terrifying definitely gimps Hamelin, no doubt at all to that.

Problem is, when I'm against a terrifying crew (i.e. Lilith running big daddies, or Seamus) I just forget about rats and spam Hamelin + Nix for murder.

Rats are cool and fun for constant spam, but they're not a necessity.

Ergo the treat your crew like worthless toys.

Also the 14 rats came from Stolen / Abandon?. Their All action that makes you sack two cards or you become insignificant, as currently you get a rat no matter what, and a couple of dead ghosts, not the Seishin.

I figured that starting with a pantsload of mice would just get them AoE'd by Datsue-ba so I wanted to only take three, but then I figured her Shikome would either Prey on Hamelin (No biggie) or Nix (Kinda biggie.)

So I just dropped Nix and spammed Stolen so she would be forced to prey Hamelin and he would just come back 50,000 times before they died.

Though that strategy proved worthless to me when I made them insignificant for the whole game and they then had no other Prey Options but Hamelin and somewhere between 3 and 45 Stolen. (And I think both Rat Catchers for the most part.)

And I just downright refused to kill them so that she couldn't bring more in to drop the Insignificant.

[hippieshopper]

Who'd you play with Kirai?

You're ladyfriend?

[tadaka]

Also the 14 rats came from Stolen / Abandon?.And I just downright refused to kill them so that she couldn't bring more in to drop the Insignificant.

Was just a point of makeing sure you playing it right. If thats how you got them cool it was just some thing that stuck out in my mind as that is a hell of a lot of rats.

Another thing to keep in mind you should never know that your playing a terrifying crew. Rules of the game means that all you should know is that your face a faction when you pick your crew. When looking at game balance you have to keep this in mind. Personly I dont like it I think masters should be balanced by masters. Avoiding rats because your other half is playing neverborn could suck.

Every faction can play the terrifying game vs you even guild can slap out the peacekeeper, killjoy or ex. The only way to avoid it is not play rats at all.

As far as not killing them that is meaningless for kirai. Personaly when I go after hamlin when he makes one insignificant I just wait till toward the end of turn and use the insignificant one as a sac for the new one.

[Dolomyte]

I meant I have no care at all for resource management when playing as Hamelin and usually end up dominating the field quickly.

I think you're a enthusiastic player who does not know the rules of the game / models completely, and your exploiting opponents who are playing models that they themselves do not understand. normally I could care less about this, but when you post on the forums about how a tactic thread is worthless because the master is so overpowered tactics dont matter, your cheapening the game for people who understand the rules and understand the caster does in fact need strategy and finesse to work to his full potential. Below is a easy hamelin counter for almost every single master you listed. your opponents can feel free to PM me or email me at dolomyte at gmail.com and I will gladly walk them thru in full detail how to build a list to handle hamelin.

-GUILD-

Perdita -

Perdita is hamelin's worst matchup. Immune to influence on herself and abuela make them untouchable by any of hamelins cool effects. The stolen have the ability to remove it, but abuela can shrug off the effect, and perdita is def 8 versus a 5 cast, so can use her soulstones *I'll have 8* to ignore it whenever you might have a better cast then I have a defense. which you wouldent because you have no hand by turn 3, and I have six cards. Abuela can make you take terrifying 13 checks to even attack the family, which the rats will fail 1/2 the time. the family is also ridiculously fast with long range shooting, so in a single alpha strike they could kill 2 rat catchers and enough rats to prevent more rat catchers from coming back. I would ignore whatever the scenario is for three turns while I wipe out your force. Ironically, i always do that with perdita, cause she's ridiculous.

Lady Justice

is a bad matchup against hamelin, no doubt. If i knew I was fighting him I would take executioner and again probably most of the family and convict gunslinger. Card denial is hamelins enemy. abuela can still heal and make you take wp checks.

Sonia Criid

You're going to love the irony of this. I would hire hamelin, so I could take the essence of power, so my damage flips get a +. then, I would AOE the crap out of your army from afar. rat catchers dont get screened by the ht1 rats, so I would target them, with the three blasts I should be able to hit them both, unless you have them spread out, if you do have the spread out, I would just kill one rat catcher and all his rats in a turn. I would save soulstones and cards to kill hamelin or cheat away your attack flips, again, by not using them in turn one or two, im guessing you wont have alot of cards or stones by turn 3.

C.Hoffman

2 guardians, 2 hunters, ryle. maybe some other stuff. all that immune to influence means hamelin needs to get into melee with the crew to do anything, and franky. I dare you. ryle and the hunters will hunt stolen, as constructs they dont care about killing them

- Resurrectionists -

Nicodem -

my undead theory is the same for all of them really. hanged, bete noire, shikome, rogue necromany, punk zombies, some of the spirits, belles maybe. Lure rats or hamelin and then kill them when they are out of range. use terrifying to ignore stuff, make you come into melee with my big hitters. Shikome would hunt stolen.

Seamus -

I would not lure hamelin, I would lure other stuff. also, you do realize you can make crews without the stuff in the boxes. and sometimes thats preferable. I'd wait till your out of cards by not cheating at all, and then used hopefully a banked 10+ of crows to slit jugalar hamelin. you dont have the cards or soulstones by your earlier list composition. he's dead man, all dead. remember stolen are really easy to kill. shikome can hunt them down from afar.

McMourning -

I would take dogs and flesh constructs, mostly dogs. and then cannibilize my dogs for body part counters to make rogue necromancy and more flesh constructs. my roomate can make a rogue necromancy on turn 1 I think. not an easy matchup, but a bunch of flesh constructs and rogues should be more then hamelin can handle.

Kirai -

you can't deny sheishin. as was already stated. Kirai can summon a crap ton of terrifying spirits over and over, so whenever one is insiginifant, i would bring a new one to replace it. terrible matchup for Hamelin.

Arcanists -

Marcus -

I'm not going to argue this on principle, because marcus is terrible. anyone should beat him other then another marcus player

Rasputina -

with silent ones her threat range on aoes is like 22 inches. it would take you a few turns of blasts to get to her. I would again AE your important mobs and then go after hamelin in a single important turn. convict is a definite in this list. more card denial. more win.

Ramos -

I dislike ramos almost as much as marcus, so I'll give you him as an always win too. though I would say the same about anyone. well, cept marcus

Colette -

Colette should destroy hamelin, with the ridiculous threat range and paired coryphee I would dance around killing your stolen, Df 7 ++ flip so the rats would have a hell of a timing hitting it, and when the stolen were down *guessing turn 2*, I would warp in cassandra and Colette to unload on hamelin.

Neverborn -

Lilith -

would destroy hamelin. warp the rat catchers/stolen/finally hamelin into her own army, with lelu, lilitu, and nekima waiting to rape them. should not even be a contest.

Pandora -

been discussed before. I dont think you will win this game thursday.

Zoraida -

I use a papa bomb zoraida list, its effectiveness would be on how you deploy. slurids would hunt stolen though. should be an even matchup

LCB / Dreamer -

sounds like you had a crappy dreamer player. the alpha strike (which is doable turn 1) should be able to wipe out hamelin and his stolen. if you have hamelin and his stolen really far apart, he can't benefit from coming back to life *needs to be within 3 inches* so Im not sure how dropping 8 alps would not immediately kill hamelin and all his stolen

Outcasts -

Vickis -

Convict plus focused strikes.

Som'er -

Mosquito bomb. it does not target hamelin so insignificant does not matter. pigapult as well.

Leveticus -

I think Leveticus is terrible, I've never been impressed by him. I would stock up on immune to influence and terror.

Hamelin -

should come down to die rolls and respective player skilll.

------------

[Wodschow]

Eh well.. This discussion is turning rather strange now.

@Sandwich: Hamelin isn't as overpowered as you claim.

@Dolomyte: Hamelin isn't such an easy pushover as you claim.

YAY, for the glorious middle ground!

Edited February 15, 2011 by Wodschow
removed unnecessary comment

[Thunder_God]

Hamelin is immune to Slit Jugular/Headshots that target him, even though it's discard cards/throw SS.