ProdigalPunk Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 You must play with a far different meta game then i do. I find it rare when first turn does not end up in dead models or objectives done. Hell I consiter it normal when a game is basicly over by turn 3. With 2 feet between models I am not really sure how I would even begin to go about doing that. Most stuff has a walk of around 5 so double moves would not even get me into base contact with each other. What would be a typical first turn in your area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) There are so many ways to attack first turn there is no normal standard way of doing so. Even going after objectives. Keep in mind my local playgroup is a lot of perdita/austringers/nino and Dreamer crews. Here are some recent first turns I can remember. Not saying every game goes this way but I think of this as normal. First round of last tournament I played in I had managed to grab the treasure and had it back in my deployment zone turn 1 using alice, ashes and dust and 2 spa. I burned out his activations and then moved up the 2 spa for 9 inches. A&D was placed in base contact with the far one putting me right in contact with the treasure. Picked it up for 2 and moved back 4 inches. Reactivation saw it move back 3 more times and then killed itself next turn I just had to pick it back up and stay alive. Last local game in the area I saw was 2 dreamer crews. one moved forward 7 inches. Second guy moved forward placed out his daydreams one of those summoned teddy who killed dreamer unleashing all his models. There was 5 models out of 12 dead first turn of the game. Second turn it was called when one player had 6 vp and other guy had next to no chance to get the treasure. Kirai game I waited out till he moved forward with his entire crew. I then summoned a shikomi and finished the first turn with 5 vp for betrayed by spirits and deliver the message. Game was over 1 turn. Edited February 18, 2011 by tadaka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Just got home from our session. Sandwich and Hamelin vs. my Colette crew. We ended up just calling it a draw after turn four when we both had max VP. The strategy was Shared Plant Evidence, which was no problem for either crew, and I took the Bodyguard scheme and just barely managed to get Power Ritual for three VP. Sand had Plague on Malifaux (which, I think, we both kind of realized during the game how easy it is for Hamelin to score three vp with this. He killed exactly one Dove the whole game, which was, of course, replaced with a rat), and he also took Stake a Claim (Hamelin would not have been moved from the terrain feature) The game went down pretty much how I expected...non interactive. The best option against his crew is to avoid conflict and rush objectives as fast as possible, hoping that he doesn't make everyone insignificant in the process. That's not too hard with Colette's crew, but a slower master will have trouble, for sure. One by one my crew fell to Understand the Soulless, with only Colette remaining I flipped a lucky trigger and managed to Blinding Flash into range of my last corner and hit it on my reactivate, at the end of the third turn to force the draw. A few notes on the game: My crew killed two rats and two soulless all game. His killed only one Dove. Nothing else was wounded. Coryphee Duet was the first to fall to Understand. That hurt. I could have maxed my VP on turn two otherwise. I'm thinking it's better to keep them separate against Hamelin. Fate is Meaningless is good. Really good. If Hamelin wants to do something, he will do it. Not cheating against Hamelin is.... less than optimal. Colette is probably a top tier master, right up there with Hamelin, but he changes the game dynamic more than anyone else. Certain schemes and strategies have no chance against him. Overall, it was a really fun game, despite the lack of action, because the whole time it felt like one misstep would hand you a loss. My final opinion? He's nearly broken, but I don't really mind playing against him. He should undergo some changes, though (Bully mostly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 WuWu well played. Hamlin is a rock. You let him bunch up and do what he was gona do and you did your thing. Even ending a draw its about all you can do vs him. I am curious why you did not call body guard as well. Given that you got 3 vp for one and managed to max your score unless he had a 3vp goal it sounds like you would have won this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 WuWu well played. Hamlin is a rock. You let him bunch up and do what he was gona do and you did your thing. Even ending a draw its about all you can do vs him. I am curious why you did not call body guard as well. Given that you got 3 vp for one and managed to max your score unless he had a 3vp goal it sounds like you would have won this. Everything was announced. Hamelin's scheme scores 3 vp as well. Kind of scary when you consider there is no number requirement on it. and thanks. it was a good game. Sandwich and I are pretty dedicated to cracking the Hamelin code right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Everything was announced. Hamelin's scheme scores 3 vp as well. Kind of scary when you consider there is no number requirement on it. Kinda scary.. Untill you realize you could've killed a Dove or a Performer (to get reactive on the Duet for instance) on turn one and he'd been unable to do anything about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Ya wod is right on this one. Very easy to cost him 3 points on that one. Live and learn but sounds like this should have been your game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Oh. Yep. Just reread the scheme, I thought it said "every enemy model you killed" Worthless scheme. Hamelin needs to find another three pointer to keep up then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Personaly I hope they remove all 3 pointers in the next book. I have found that the game has basicly went every one did not announce and then some one got smart and said hey I am going this. Now every one announces both every game and now its getting to the point where every one takes a 3 pointer to keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Personaly I hope they remove all 3 pointers in the next book. I have found that the game has basicly went every one did not announce and then some one got smart and said hey I am going this. Now every one announces both every game and now its getting to the point where every one takes a 3 pointer to keep up. Yeah, that's a good point Tadaka. Especially since not everyone has access to all the three pointers. I don't think I'll be taking Power Ritual much with Colette anymore, just for that reason. It might be good to drop that one down to a standard 2 vp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Just a fyi, also: I had suggested Sand take Plague on Malifaux, and he agreed, so even if we were playing it correctly I wouldn't have screwed him over by killing my own model. That'd be low. I'm sure he would have taken another scheme instead, and the game could have unfolded a little differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Very cool of you. Feal free to ignore the crush every one view of mine. I play a lot of fun games but look at the rules from a very min max view point because I enjoy tournaments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Very cool of you. Feal free to ignore the crush every one view of mine. I play a lot of fun games but look at the rules from a very min max view point because I enjoy tournaments. Don't get me wrong, I definitely enjoy crushing, but it's the most satisfying when I have an equal chance of being crushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Just hopped on the computer for a quick second to write this up. We played a Colette versus Hamelin game because we both felt that actually expose how broken he was we couldn't do it with Pandora. (Who is slightly off center when it comes to balance.) This actually was not the case. Colette held her own very well against Hamelin and felt very balanced. Though this was in part due to my ignorance of both Power Ritual and how mobile Colette really can be. It was obvious very early on that there was no way in hell I was going to be able to lock Colette down, let alone her Coryphee. It was a break of luck that WUWU left them near Hamelin and in range of his Understand the Soulless. (Though they had already hit 2 out of 4 corners and one out of four terrain pieces for Plant the Evidence.) If I had not managed to make the Coryphee Insignificant so early on, he would've had a 100% guarantee for all 9 VP. (Which he achieved anyway.) I chose to forget about spamming Rats as I knew Colette was fast and that maintaining an upkeep of vermin wouldn't do anything productive for me at all, and he knew this as well and ignored them for much of the game. The game was very non-confrontational but taught us both a lot. Hamelin is certainly an unstoppable juggernaut against quite a few crews, but there are other masters (Mostly all are in Rising Powers) that can really stand blow for blow, or Vp for Vp with him. It's really left me questioning if it's Hamelin that's broken, or if the problem is a little more personal and I need to work on my sportsmanship. When I play I allow 0 wiggle room for error and that may be where the unenjoyment of playing Hamelin actually stems from, and I'm now a tad bit sad at that realization. :[ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder_God Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Yeah, could just turn the 2 pointers into auto-announce without the extra +1, or say they can't be announced... Regardless, Hamelin's Scheme might be a rare one worth 3 VPs max, because, well, the enemy can just kill one of his own models and deny it to you. It can hurt him, but in the end, the game revolves and resolves on VPs. If someone announced that scheme, they're taking a big gamble. Heck, you can often assume they'll take it even if unannounced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) I am with you sand. I have a local friend who dont like using the dreamer because my sportsmanship goes right out the window playing vs the dreamer. I have been working on trying to be more light harted with the game and just have fun with it. I think my friend was actualy impressed at how cool I was with my last arse kicking from perdita so there may be hope for me yet. Edited February 18, 2011 by tadaka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 It was a break of luck that WUWU left them near Hamelin and in range of his Understand the Soulless. (Though they had already hit 2 out of 4 corners and one out of four terrain pieces for Plant the Evidence.) If I had not managed to make the Coryphee Insignificant so early on, he would've had a 100% guarantee for all 9 VP. (Which he achieved anyway.) To my knowledge, there is nothing stopping insignificant models from touching corners and making power ritual work nor bodyguard. It would hinder the plant evidence though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 To my knowledge, there is nothing stopping insignificant models from touching corners and making power ritual work nor bodyguard. It would hinder the plant evidence though. Nope, in RP it says insignificant cannot interact with a corner. I feel like all Strats and Schemes have been been changed to no allow insignificants to interact, but don't quote me on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProdigalPunk Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 Nope, in RP it says insignificant cannot interact with a corner. I feel like all Strats and Schemes have been been changed to no allow insignificants to interact, but don't quote me on this. Opps, my bad, it does in fact say that. Glad to see that you are getting more of a feel for the game and are giving Sandwich a little friendly competition. Also glad to see Sandwich feeling that pressure and re-evaluating Hamlin. Your next move is to master some of the older Masters and keep the persuasion going. I do think that the Schemes and Strategies could use another reboot, and that might help curb the power of the masters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted February 18, 2011 Report Share Posted February 18, 2011 The problem I've encountered is that it feels balanced against only a couple of the more powerful masters. Colette and Pandora are both high end in the effective field. If WUWU fields someone such as Nico, Ramos, Levi et cetera, I'm afraid that the game would just be overwhelmingly in my favor, and I would have no room to offer him any leeway because of Voracious Rats. Let alone a million rats with Paired (Impetuous) Cb 4 nomming out on KJ, Desolation Engines, Steamborgs, et cetera. All of the above have decent health but 4 or less Df and 6 or less Wp (Which at the end of the game would be reduced by at LEAST 2.) I still can't 100% say that Hamelin is not broken because I haven't played against the crews I said he was broken against again yet, but time wil tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 The problem I've encountered is that it feels balanced against only a couple of the more powerful masters. Colette and Pandora are both high end in the effective field. If WUWU fields someone such as Nico, Ramos, Levi et cetera, I'm afraid that the game would just be overwhelmingly in my favor, and I would have no room to offer him any leeway because of Voracious Rats. Let alone a million rats with Paired (Impetuous) Cb 4 nomming out on KJ, Desolation Engines, Steamborgs, et cetera. All of the above have decent health but 4 or less Df and 6 or less Wp (Which at the end of the game would be reduced by at LEAST 2.) I still can't 100% say that Hamelin is not broken because I haven't played against the crews I said he was broken against again yet, but time wil tell. Leveticus seems like a good matchup the more i look at it, he is soulless so suffers no ill effects from killing stolen and dies and respawns every turn, making him very hard to keep insignificant. plus lots of terror. I want to test hamelin out some more with my roomates. can you please list what you would take against the following 35ss lists sandwich Lilith Lelitu Lelu Nekima Terror Tot Totem 7 SS Pandora doppleganger jack daw 2x stitched together 2x Sorrow 6 SS Colette Cassandra Duet Showgirl and manaquin x2 3 SS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 Against any lilith build, the standard Hamelin list of a Rat Catcher Rat Catcher Nix Stolen Stolen 3x rats Rats aren't for combat. Rats are for completing objectives. Force the fight to come to you by camping Hamelin far in the back with his stolen. Send Nix, Rats, and both RC out into the field and finish business quickly. Rats have a 5" walk and can base activate 3 times, and utilizing Nix you can get massive mobility. --- Against Pandora a few rats are important, but The Stolen will shine greatly due to No Humanity, so I would spam them instead of Rats because once Pandora can't mess with Hamelin, making Rats will be easy. You'll also want a handful of Soul Stonestone so you need to leave some wiggle room for that as well. So, Rat Catcher Rat Catcher Nix Stolen Stolen Stolen Stolen Edit for Colette I think in my last game I took too many rats and didn't focus on spamming Stolen with Hamelin to lock down the crew early on with Insignificant. Though had I been playing differently I think all I could've ever done without luck would be to postpone his 9 Vp, I need more games against Colette before I have a definitive answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WUWU Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I was just going to chime in and say spamming the Stolen is probably much more effective against Colette, so taking that same list you have for Pandora would be good, and depending on the strategy, I might even drop Nix for four rats (two for each catcher) to chase after objectives. There's really not much concern over her crew killing Hamelin, so dropping Nix could be a reasonable gamble. Camping in the back against that Lilith list might not even be necessary, it only has four scoring models (with WP 4, 5, 6, 6, not that impressive), I'd probably park Hamelin in the middle of the board threatening Understand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder_God Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 I'd say that if you can kill Hamelin early, go for it. With a CA of 3, he won't have that easy of a time pulling an Understand on higher WP models and Masters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted February 19, 2011 Report Share Posted February 19, 2011 If you reduce his Ca to 3, he can just hit you with Pipes and hope for his Haunting Melodies trigger. And by spamming Stolen with Abandon and No Humanity, killing Hamelin is going to be one hell of a task. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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