Hamelin the Plagued Advice

[FrereSebastian]

So I have seen a lot of the threads on Hamelin the Plagued on the forums but I really don't see much in the way of a tactica, or a good list that people have found that works for them.

So while I am a novice to the forum, let me be the first to start a "general tactics" thread for our lovable pied piper. (though he seems a bit mottled to me)

As a list that seems to work the models are:

Hamelin

2x Rat Catchers

1 or 2 stolen

1 Nix

1 wretch

Crap ton of rats

Have people ran this list? If so how effective was it/ what types of tactics did you use?

Can we get people to comment on how Hamelin is supposed to "swarm" the other masters with activations?

Thanks for your input guys I just want to get an official Tactics Hamelin thread so others don't have to dig through the QQ in order to read about him

Best,

FrereSebastain

[Wodschow]

I think the reason there's no tactica yet is because he haven't been released

Generally people don't play unreleased crews 'cept for the occasional proxying.. That's how it is around here anyway.

The list I'm planning to run will 'spam' Desperate Mercenaries and Canines rather than Rats and Ratcatchers - I'll end up getting those later on anyway.

I'll have to try the other Ht1 options aswell and see if they work, mainly Stolen, Night Terrors, Terror Tots, Kade and Candy. I do think Stolen will be worth including in your starting force at times.

But yeah well.. This is just theorizing.

[FrereSebastian]

Ohhhh I guess that is a pretty good reason to not have that many strats about a character huh?

Thanks for the reply though

[Chucklemonkey]

I do think that as soon as the box set comes out there will be an awful lot of discussions as to Hamelin's tactics and abilities. There is so much versatility to his crew selection it will be a lot of fun trying all of the different combinations.

I was also looking at a dog swarm as one option, and having kade and candy makes a posse of kids very appealing...

I hope nobody quotes that out of context.

[Apokra]

I think buying rats to begin with is a mistake

Stolen spawn them even when sacrificed, as does the obedient wretch also when you kill, even spirits, rats spawn as long as you have Hamlin or rat catchers around and the rule of equivelency can be followed.

Rat Catchers

the kill all rats within 6" thing is HUGE.

Activation 1

Rat swarm activates and utilizes whatever means it needs to move+ attack something leaving enough room for a 30mm base to fit in.

Activation 2

Rat catcher moves through the rats into space you left and activates kill all rats. They all die and are replaced with another rat.

Activation 3

Rats that were made after killing the first set all activate and repeat bites ect.

This not only makes up for the slow issue but it also buys you a complete new activation. Should you kill your target via bites or any other reason the rat catch is close enough to spawn another rat.

[Doctor Amos]

Stay away from Gaki, flesh constructs, wendigos, hoarcats, and flammewerfers.

[tadaka]

You are right that even sacrificed stolen make rats but the also cost 1.5 times as much as a rat. It depends on how rat heavy you want to go. If the other guy has a decent way to pick off your rat catchers you can lose a lot of rats very fast.

I think it depends on if you want your crew to focus on hamlin doing the dirty work or the rats. If you want to be able to sacrifice a lot of models and let hamlin do his worst then go stolen heavy. Keep in mind rat swarms are very nasty and you get a lot more out of buying the rats directly.

Stolen die very easy they are great if you get to sac them but if the other guy is killing them off fast your basicly buying expensive rats that make the other side make a wp check. This can be good vs some crews and garbage vs some one like hoffman who can run whole crews of immune to inf.

[Thunder_God]

Amos, well, Gaki make sense, in the fluff even!

I'm really considering whether Obedient Wretch or the Primordial Magic is a better totem for Hamelin. Primordial has the suit for all the spells, while the Wretch has none.

Also, it's a combination of minus WP and a WP check. And as you know, you can base your crew on what you think your opponent will field.

[Apokra]

You are right that even sacrificed stolen make rats but the also cost 1.5 times as much as a rat. It depends on how rat heavy you want to go. If the other guy has a decent way to pick off your rat catchers you can lose a lot of rats very fast.

I think it depends on if you want your crew to focus on hamlin doing the dirty work or the rats. If you want to be able to sacrifice a lot of models and let hamlin do his worst then go stolen heavy. Keep in mind rat swarms are very nasty and you get a lot more out of buying the rats directly.

Stolen die very easy they are great if you get to sac them but if the other guy is killing them off fast your basicly buying expensive rats that make the other side make a wp check. This can be good vs some crews and garbage vs some one like hoffman who can run whole crews of immune to inf.

Stolen do die quickly but with obedient wretch, sorrows (impromtpu totems) etc the stolen will get saced fast. Also add in the fact that they fuel your better spells. I understand they cost 1.5 the cost but when yous ac them you get a rat whereas you sac a rat and you get nothing... It comes down to play style but I don't see me purchasing more than 2 rats to begin with.

Specifically making something insignfigant and then requiring it to attack hamelin (which is immune to attacks) makes a 12" bubble where that model is infective.

The below list is off of memory I will update once I get home and can double check. Most entries are book one related. Please inform me if there's something that needs to be added! Pied Piper here we come!

Hamelin, the plagued hirable list

Outcast

Malifaux rats

Nix

Rat Catchers

(isignifigant noble the 2 ss one)

Stolen

Obedient Wretch

Piglet

Malifaux child

Neverborn

Candy

Kade

Sorrow

Terror Tot's > (through growth young and then mature)

Primordial Essence

Arcanist

Hoarcat Pride

Molemen

Essence of Power (Totem)

Ressurectionist

Grave Spirit

Canine Remains

[HopelessHeretic]

Immune to influence does not effect the stolens wp check when it dies. Immune to influence is only when you are the defender and in a simple duel you are always the attacker.

-Heretic

[tadaka]

Cant say i agree with that.

Per the book

Defender, Defending model

Model respinging to an action in a duel.

Says nothing about a opposed duel to be a defender. Perhaps you can expand on how you came to this I could very well be wrong but I dont see how you come to that.

[Sandwich]

Immune to Influence states that the model with ItI is immune to all duels in which it is the defender.

Terrifying has no defender and therefore Immune to Influence never comes into effect.

To be a defender, there must be an attacker.

In a duel such as, say WP -> Wp, or Ca -> WP

There is an attacker.

In a duel that is Wp-> 13, there is not attacker,

And therefore no defender.

Whoever said ItI models must make said check, they are correct.

As to the OP.

Hamelin, the Plague, is considered VERY broken by many people, such as everyone who has ever played against or as him, myself included.

Few people feel the need to create a Tactica because we understand that Wyrd will be making a TON of changes to balance his crew, so writing one now would be very silly.

But if you are looking for a general outline of how to work Hamelin,

Start with at least 2 Ratcatchers, Nix, and at least 2 Stolen.

Fill the rest of that gap with Rats.

Then pretend that none of your crew, control cards, or Soul Stones are important at all, instead acting impulsively and expend great amounts of resources to kill whatever it is you please.

This is because if Hamelin dies, he will come back immediately (and gains Reactivate, and is (+1)Fast)

This is because if Hamelin is hurt, he can heal immediately.

This is because if Nix dies, you still have Hamelin.

This is because if a Rat dies, it comes back immediately(and gains reactivate).

This is because if a Rat Catcher dies, he can come back quickly.

This is because if a Stolen dies, s/he will come back quickly.

This is because if a Rat damages anything, (And because of Impetuous, they do.) All other models hitting that model do +1 Dg(This increases exponentially because all of your rats act simultaneously and all of them inflict Blight Counters.)

This is because I have had a Rat 1 shot C.Hoffman (After his +4 armor)

This is because I had 9 Blight Counters on C.Hoffman.

This is because Hamelin can obey masters.

This is because Hamelin can ignore fate.

This is because Hamelin cannot be targeted by Insignificant or Ht 1 models.

This is because Hamelin has a cast of 7 and can permenantly make models Insignificant.

This is because Hamelin has a Cb 7 and can permenantly make models insignificant.

This is because Hamelin can Obey 90% of all models with his ranged Weapon.

This is because Hamelin can give himself :+fate to all attack and Defense flips.

This is because he has Lure.

[tadaka]

Well did some research and your right. I got to say I cant for the life of me figure out how some one was suposed to get that in the rules. Every one I have ever played vs has never questioned immune to inf preventing terifying and the like. This makes alip bombs much scarryer as you cant even take immune to inf as a counter as it would work the same way. I cant wait for this new rules manual I realy hope it does a solid job of makeing the rules clear.

Edit. Just to avoid any one being lost on this. Its important to note that just because it is a simple duel does not make it bypass immune to inf. For example if you cast a spell on a target it is 2 simple duels not an opposed duel. It is the targeting that makes it an attack and as an attack it has a defender. Terrifying is not an attack per the rules and thats why it is not effected.

Edited February 11, 2011 by tadaka

[tadaka]

Sand obviously you have strong fealings about how broken ham is. Just based on what you said I think you may want to know a model with a blight counter suffers +1 wound for one or more counters. Does not say +1 for each blight counter. Rat can not one shot a hoffman with 4 armor. It would hit do 1 or 2 damage and then be left with 1 wound. The one wound would become two wounds.

That being said your 100% right that a pack of rats can crush anything.

[Sandwich]

You are 100% right about the Blight Counters.

That makes them much more balanced, but does not help to even scales of Hamelin. :[

It just makes Bleeding Plague a million more times feasible.

[Thunder_God]

Huh... I've totally read Blight Counters wrong as well, and though Bleeding Disease thus did Blight Counters * 2 damage, whereas it's Blight Counters + 1. Interesting. Thanks!

Bleeding Disease is still Wds and not Damage, and isn't Ranged, so still pretty nasty.

[Wodschow]

I think you're exaggerating a bit too much Sandwich (like usually..?), some of the points you make are outright wrong and you fail to mention any of his weaknesses at all.

I also don't like the crew you say that must be taken with him, but whatever.

We'll see how much he's actually changed when the card is released - I don't think he'll be much different, though I do at least expect that his infinite loop is closed.

---

Also I used to believe that there had to be an attacker for there to be a defender aswell, but I remember Sketch pointing out I was wrong about this at some point.

Can't remember exactly when you're considered to be the defender and when you're not though, and I don't have the time right now to skim through dozens of old threads.. Sorry. But there definetly are exceptions, unless they changed it again.

[FrereSebastian]

I just want to say that Impetuous gives the rats an additional 0 action otherwise it would be stupid to give the rats +1 action and then give them slow to -1 action

So I think you're letting some bad initial playing with Hamelin cloud your judgement

[Apokra]

He, just like every other master, requires a specific approach to take down. More complex than some maybe; however people need to realize just because something seems strong looking through the box and knowledge you utilize doesn't mean it is once you remove the view finder to outside of it.

[hippieshopper]

No, we have tried many, many times...and he is indeed broken.

We've used several different masters, play styles, strategies...and it is quite easy to see that he is very broken right now.

Many of those points are quite valid. Maybe favoritism clouds judgement.

Sandy made some excellent points.

Because of how he shafts the RoE, you never get the counters you need.

He can OBEY masters

Making something Insignifigant for the whole game...yeah that's broken.

Most of what he said is absolutely correct.

If it is wrong, please...point out how you feel it is different.

[ProdigalPunk]

No, we have tried many, many times...and he is indeed broken.

We've used several different masters, play styles, strategies...and it is quite easy to see that he is very broken right now.

Many of those points are quite valid. Maybe favoritism clouds judgement.

Sandy made some excellent points.

Because of how he shafts the RoE, you never get the counters you need.

He can OBEY masters

Making something Insignifigant for the whole game...yeah that's broken.

Most of what he said is absolutely correct.

If it is wrong, please...point out how you feel it is different.

The Rule of Equivalency is wonky at best, I assume at some point they will fix it, and thinks will not be as bad.

He can OBEY masters

That right there is where you lost me, and I start to not lose faith in your judgment. I assume you are referring to Pipes, which effects currently 2 and a half masters at the moment, and on top of that you need to flip a severe. I am not including henchmen as masters, then the number might go up slightly, but I hardly consider this broken. It is something I see happening once ever 20th opponent.

Making something Insignifigant for the whole game...yeah that's broken.

So Seamus is broken as well? Bete Noir is a minion and she has an ability that is also rather similar. Stuff like this has been around since book 1, and last time I checked everyone seemed ok with it. Paired with Bully, it does make him a slightly stronger user of the effect, but that is pretty much his shtick. Maybe for the spell, make it non-master, but other then that I think it is fine. Even then, there are things McM can one hit a lot of masters with a solid cast of a spell, so that seems a little more wicked.

He seems tough, but not so tough I think he is the be all end all.

[hippieshopper]

He can OBEY masters

That right there is where you lost me, and I start to not lose faith in your judgment. I assume you are referring to Pipes, which effects currently 2 and a half masters at the moment, and on top of that you need to flip a severe. I am not including henchmen as masters, then the number might go up slightly, but I hardly consider this broken. It is something I see happening once ever 20th opponent.

Three words...Fate is Meaningless.

Pop that then attack, now you can cheat fate.

Throw down a severe.

It's obey that you can use on masters.

Making something Insignifigant for the whole game...yeah that's broken.

So Seamus is broken as well? Bete Noir is a minion and she has an ability that is also rather similar. Stuff like this has been around since book 1, and last time I checked everyone seemed ok with it. Paired with Bully, it does make him a slightly stronger user of the effect, but that is pretty much his shtick. Maybe for the spell, make it non-master, but other then that I think it is fine. Even then, there are things McM can one hit a lot of masters with a solid cast of a spell, so that seems a little more wicked.

Bully...that's why, he can just make something insignificant and eventually all of your crew and now you automatically lose when you have Contain Power or assassinate.

You just cannot hit him, it's not a matter of cards or luck.

Yes, Seamus and Bete have that but you can still hit them.

It is exactly as Sandy said, just treat your crew as completely expendable and you will do just fine.

It has gotten to the point that nobody will even buy him until he is fixed...and even with all his wonky-ness...well you have to be truly Wyrd to fix that much silliness.

[Sandwich]

Starting with my favorite person on the forums,

I think you're exaggerating a bit too much Sandwich (like usually..?), some of the points you make are outright wrong and you fail to mention any of his weaknesses at all.

I also don't like the crew you say that must be taken with him, but whatever.

We'll see how much he's actually changed when the card is released - I don't think he'll be much different, though I do at least expect that his infinite loop is closed.

---

Also I used to believe that there had to be an attacker for there to be a defender aswell, but I remember Sketch pointing out I was wrong about this at some point.

Can't remember exactly when you're considered to be the defender and when you're not though, and I don't have the time right now to skim through dozens of old threads.. Sorry. But there definetly are exceptions, unless they changed it again.

I was wrong about the Blight Counters, that is correct.

Adding only +1Wd instead of 10-20 doesn't make them any less horrible when Bleeding Plague takes effect.

I didn't say you have to take any crew with him, I'm just pointing out the most broken crew I've run with and against, it's just my opinion.

I know a lot of people want me to be wrong, I know they want to make Wyrd out to be perfect, but the fact remains Hamelin is broken.

Does that Vilify Wyrd? No.

In fact it proves they are all human and not scilons.

Do I hate Wyrd because of Hamelin?

Hell no, they're still the only company I will ever buy miniatures from.

Why?

Because they deserve my monies.

As for his weaknesses, I have yet to find any with the way I play.

I don't even infinite loop and he's broken.

As for the Attacker / Defender,

I'm following it as it sits now until there are hard rules saying otherwise.

--

I just want to say that Impetuous gives the rats an additional 0 action otherwise it would be stupid to give the rats +1 action and then give them slow to -1 action

So I think you're letting some bad initial playing with Hamelin cloud your judgement

??

Impetuous gives them a on their attack flip.

4 Cb paired, basically.

Which in itself isn't at all OP,

But with 9 rats eating you at once, and then Hamelin / Stolen smacking you with Bleeding Disease, well.

:/

-----

He, just like every other master, requires a specific approach to take down. More complex than some maybe; however people need to realize just because something seems strong looking through the box and knowledge you utilize doesn't mean it is once you remove the view finder to outside of it.

When the best agreed upon strategey (at least to the people I know personally) is to just not play Hamelin, there's an issue.

Is it physically possible to beat Hamelin? Yes.

Problem?

He can make your entire crew insignificant and then spawn stolen and rats to mudhole your strategy / schemes and then not care.

Last night I played a game and had 4 VP at the end of turn one.

Mind you it was solely to prove he was broken.

Edited February 13, 2011 by Sandwich

[Thunder_God]

How did you get the 4 VP in turn one with that crew? Describe

[Sandwich]

Crews =

Deployment = 12.5"

Shared Destroy the Evidence

Hamelin the Plagued - 1 SS

Nix

Stolen

Stolen

Rat Catcher

Rat Catcher

Rats x6

Versus

Pandora 7 SS

Stitched

Stitched

Coppelius

Kade/Candy

Woes x???

Turn one;

Hamelin activates Rats, utilizing Writhing Mass, take middle Evidence, 2 VP, move two rats towards another Evidence.

Pandora player moves Coppelius x2 towards a Evidence off to the side.

Hamelin Player activates Hamelin, the Plagued made Coppelius(now in range) insignificant, summoned Stolen, Obeyed Coppelius, moved him 6" towards his deployment zone.

Pandora player activated Stitched Together, walked x", Gambler'd a Rat, won. Gamble Your Life'd a Rat. Rat immediately returned.

Hamelin activated a Rat Catcher, moved it 4" towards rats in the center, Slaughters Rats, Rats return.

Pandora activates Kade and picks up the Evidence in their DZ.

Hamelin activates Rats, takes another Evidence marker, + 1 VP, and then uses the other rats farther off the edge.

Pandora Player activates another Stitched and kills off a Rat and has me sack my final Control Card, (although looking back, I think Hamelin is immune to that stuff, which would just be more OP, don't have the book.)

Hamelin player activates Rats off to the side and takes another Evidence marker for another +1 VP, for a total for +4 VP at the end of turn one.