Colette for beginner?

[eturns]

Hi all,

I have only recently got in to Malifaux and will be starting a Dreamer crew. My wife has been looking through the books and really likes the look of Colette and the showgirls.

Do you think, seems as both of us will be learning the rules together, that colette is an ok choice for a beginner?

Thanks

Ed

[Tograth]

Colette is supposed to be quite tricky to use - her crew has some mechanics which are very advanced when compared to some of the other crews.

Question for ya - what other crews was your wife looking at? was it specifically colette, or arcanists, or were there others that she had taken a look at?

If she wants to stay with the arcanists, I would recommend starting off with Rasputina. Her box set, plus 2 silent ones and possibly either a freikorps trapper or Hans are a great starting point for the arcanists.

Once you have the basics down, and are confident with the rules etc, i would say look at Colette. She's not for the faint of heart.

[Uncle]

Hi all,

I have only recently got in to Malifaux and will be starting a Dreamer crew. My wife has been looking through the books and really likes the look of Colette and the showgirls.

Do you think, seems as both of us will be learning the rules together, that colette is an ok choice for a beginner?

Thanks

Ed

Honest-to-god, I get tired of people trying to say that particular Masters are "difficult" or "challenging" to play. Sure, Colette's got a few more tricks up her sleeve than, say, Lady Justice, but Malifaux is not that complicated of a game.

In a typical Malifaux game, a Showgirl crew will have at most 10 models to keep track of. That's not difficult to do, and your wife should have no problem, assuming she wants to play Showgirls because they're "neat" or "pretty."

Just one minor word of caution, however: the Dreamer tends to be an interesting matchup for the girls. The Showgirls rely on maneuverability to avoid threats (in my experience), whereas the Dreamer is somewhat more maneuverable and has massive alpha strike capability.

[Ratty]

Both the Dreamer and the Showgirls are a bit more tricky than your average crew. I don't see this as much of a problem if you are both getting started at the same time as you will both be getting used to the crews at the same time rather than coming up against people who know what there doing and will whitewash you.

My suggestion is start small, leaving out the more complicated models the first few games, so you can get used to a selection of the rules at the same time.

[Mergoth]

If she wants to stay with the arcanists, I would recommend starting off with Rasputina. Her box set, plus 2 silent ones and possibly either a freikorps trapper or Hans are a great starting point for the arcanists.

Very true. And believe me, if even Tograth can win a game with them they MUST be easy to use! *Runs away*

Seriously though, they are a great well balanced starter box to begin with and are great fun to play with and against.

[Clousseau]

I always recommend going with a crew you like the look of (applies to any game). You can always learn the basic mechanics with a borrowed crew with a 'less tricky' master.

[Bigmike]

I agree that she has a learning big learning curve. I got frustrated at first with her cause i couldn't seem to win. Something to take into mind, just because she makes crazy soul stones doesnt mean you dont need to start with any. Buy the coryphee and doves when the doves come out. I think its a harder match up against the dreamer but she can take him down just the same. The important things to keep in mind are. 1:doves give you showgirls positive twists on soul stone flips when used, make doves when and if you can. You have to spend a soulstone to do it, but you can make a new one early on by getting rid of your crappy cards. 2:performers may not do tons of damage but don't underestimate their ability to mess with another army anyway. 3. dont be afraid to make sure one die so that cassandra gets reactivate when you need her to keep on killing. 4: Keep someone in range of death defying at all times. 18" sounds like a huge distance, but with this army it can be crossed very easy. 5: Blinding flash works on a hit or miss!!! 6 although hard to cast, the mannequins mirrors ability can majorly screw over an opponent.

[eturns]

Thanks for the comments, the other crew that interested her are the Viktorias.

I think we will probably get the Showgirls, your more likely to enjoy playing and learning with a group of models that keep you interested i think. Also as we will not be playing advanced players anytime soon, the more complicated moves will be a bit less of an issue i guess.

I'm sure we'll be around asking advice from the more knowledgable players as at when thinks pop up during games.

[Doctor Amos]

Vote against showgirls starting, if there's a viable toss-up. If the line-of-thought is "ooh, pretty" and she has no idea how to make heads or tails of a minis game, it may be an uphill battle.

Or maybe not, of course, but all else being equal I advise against Collette (and Pandora, and Leveticus, maybe a couple others) for people who are expecially new to the hobby and/or the game.

[Uncle]

Vote against showgirls starting, if there's a viable toss-up. If the line-of-thought is "ooh, pretty" and she has no idea how to make heads or tails of a minis game, it may be an uphill battle.

Or maybe not, of course, but all else being equal I advise against Collette (and Pandora, and Leveticus, maybe a couple others) for people who are expecially new to the hobby and/or the game.

Again, I have to point out: Colette ain't complicated. Sure, she has a few tricks that may not be immediately obvious to a brand new player, but she's nowhere near as confusing as people like to make her out to be.

Of course, I'm biased. Colette's crew was what made me decide to invest in Malifaux, and if I was told "Oh, you should probably spend some money on a force you don't like to play as a 'starter,'" I would quickly find another game to play.

Really, the only particularly "tricky" models in Colette's crew are the Showgirls. Aside from that, there's really nothing overly complicated about the girls. The game still boils down to "Get your stuff done T1-T2 and then try like hell to hold on the rest of the game."

[Lorenz]

collette is amazing I love her and her crew and getting the coryphee makes her a beast but I really like the performers with the range attacks and lureing capabilities. plus cassandra is as good as a henchmen with out a totem. so pull stuff in and tear it apart with magic attacks and fast moving blades

[Wodschow]

I'll have to agree with JPRoth, the complexity of this game is overrated.

If you didn't have access to the internet and had to figure out all the tricks on your own, then yes, some of the Masters would probably take a long time to get right (like how no-one understood Pandora at all for the first few months after the release of Malifaux and everyone claimed she was underpowered). But when you can just read up a tactica and get the main idea as to what you should do with a Master, then it really isn't that difficult.

Some of it might still take practice, like knowing what to do when, but this isn't overly difficult and it's not even necessarily the Masters with the highest 'complexity' that takes the most time and practice to get used to.

Edit:

Bottomline is, have her read the tactica, or read it yourself and tell her roughly what to do, although if you know all the tricks it'll probably be harder for her to come up with something

[MrNybbles]

Bottomline is, have her read the tactica, or read it yourself and tell her roughly what to do, although if you know all the tricks it'll probably be harder for her to come up with something

The link for the Showgirl Tactica is in my signature. The next version (with much needed updates) will be out shortly after the next errata.

Here's a quick rundown that's kinda missing from the current version.

Try to start the game with at least 5 Soulstones. Mid-game the number of Soulstones you have left will likely get real low.

The Showgirls tend to do average damage. If you are going to kill an enemy model then you should deal damage in volume (i.e. gang up on enemy models).

Basically Cassandra, Coryphees, and Coryphee Duet are your melee striking models. Use them against models like Sonia Criid who have low Df and/or anti-magic abilities.

Cassandra is also a decent caster.

Colette and the Mechanical Doves are great at casting Magician's Duel. Use this for models with Low Ca. Colette can also create Soulstones, more Mechanical Doves (you may have up to three in play at any one time), and has Slow to Die so if she is killed you can do a healing flip and she lives as long as she has a Soulstone to spend and does not flip the Black Joker.

If you use Colette's Disappearing act then you should always expect the Mannequin Replacement trigger to NOT go off (unless you have another master with the Mobile Toolkit totem).

The primary use for Mechanical Doves is to fly in and cast Magician's Duel. Don't send them in alone but in a flock of Doves or with Cassandra and Coryphee/Coryphee Duet. The non-Colette players at my LGS all hate the Doves, some of which I haven't played against yet. (We have a few Colette players).

Magician's Duel gives you a free Soulstone if you kill the target. Don't get greedy when using the Doves, always cheat in a high card and use a Soulstone to deliver the deathblow or you risk having your opponent flip a 13 or Red Joker and resist the spell.

The Performers are debuffers. They can Slow opponents and use Seduction to hinder the target's defense and resist flips. However, models who are resistant to Wp duels are not effected.

Mannequins are great for playing a Showgirl shell game with Colette. The Mannequins have a lot of abilities, actions, and spells which are very misleading. At first glance they look like a Swiss army knife, but they are really more like a wad of Swiss Cheese that doesn't go with the crackers they were packaged with. However, after activating them and using their zero-action to gain Use Soulstone it is fun to have an opponent hit them repeatedly with a fast model and to do a damage reduction flip to save them, then have another Showgirl fix them.

Bishop has a high Cb and is actually very good about charging Mannequins and dealing damage a total of 3 time in one activation which can kill a Mannequin. He has low damage, but against Object 2 & Armor 3 it is the number of attacks that counts and not how much damage per attack.

McMourning can kill a Coryphee Duet in one activation. Beware!

Again, I have to point out: Colette ain't complicated. Sure, she has a few tricks that may not be immediately obvious to a brand new player, but she's nowhere near as confusing as people like to make her out to be.

It's not so much that they have complicated rules as they have a large number of Talents & Spells and figuring out how they interact well with your crew can be difficult to figure out on your own. Off the top of your head do you remember which Showgirl has the ability Grand Finale and what it does?

I think knowing what rolls they play helps a lot. If you try to use the Performers for ranged and melee attacks then you are probably going to get very frustrated. However, they are great at debuffing.

Also, many of the Showgirl's mechanics are not as straightforward as they should be. Hopefully these will be addressed in the future.

What causes Harmless to end was changed from Book 1, and people often don't realize that the Harmless Wp > 12 duel must be taken for every ACTION that targets the Harmless model.

Colette's Soulstone Augury only applies when you discard a Soulstone to add to a Duel's total, not any time you discard a Soulstone because the Talent's or Spell's description says so. Sketch basically says you either do everything the description says when you successfully cast a spell or it fizzles. This is why the Performer's Expensive Gift will only give you a Soulstone if your opponent has one to discard. The same with the Mechanical Dove's Soulstone Powered ability.

Harmless, Irresistible, and Celebrity are all defensive abilities, but each one works very differently from the others.

The wording on the Mannequin's Fixable means that any friendly Showgirl within 2" of a Mannequin may target any Mannequin in play with (1) Fix Mannequin. Mannequins also grant themselves this ability so any Mannequin can fix themselves.

The wording of Cassandra's Celebrity ability prevents her from casting Sublime Performance on herself while the protection of Celebrity is still active. Sketch apparently thinks this was intentional from his response when this was brought up.

The wording on the Performer's Irresistible is written to concise and straightforward. In a future errata it should be changed to involve playing a 6-turn 2-Soulstone sub-game of Malifaux using different Masters than those currently in play for each action targeting this model. If the attacker does not score more VP than the defender then the action fails.

I would recommend that if a player wants to get into Malifaux starting with the Colette, you track down a Colette player and loan the new player a Lilith or Victoria crew and have them play against Colette. The new player gets to learn the basic game mechanics, get introduced to another crew, and is shown what the Showgirls do and how they do it. Sure, this is like teaching someone about sticks by violently beating them over the head with a stick, but it is very effective.

Really, the only particularly "tricky" models in Colette's crew are the Showgirls. Aside from that, there's really nothing overly complicated about the girls.

With the exception of the Mechanical Doves they are all Showgirls. I'm thinking you mean either the Performers or the Mannequins, but either way I got a kick out of this I'm thinking of adding this quote to my signature.

Edited January 24, 2011 by MrNybbles
Added reply to JPRoth1980

[LoboStele]

Heh, I actually started with the Viks, and then after only about 4-5 games with them, I picked up Colette, and haven't touched the Viks again since. Either one would be good for a starting player, IMO. Tell her to concentrate on learning how to use just Colette and Cassandra first (and the Coryphee if you pick them up, which you REALLY should do). Once she has a good handle on those 3 pieces, then start learning how to add in the Performers, Mannequins, and Doves.

[Uncle]

It's not so much that they have complicated rules as they have a large number of Talents & Spells and figuring out how they interact well with your crew can be difficult to figure out on your own. Off the top of your head do you remember which Showgirl has the ability Grand Finale and what it does?

Off the top of my head, that would be Cassandra, and it would allow her (if still alive) to activate at the end of the game, but before calculating VPs and the like.

Do I win anything?

Let's be honest here, guys: here's what you're going to take in a Colette crew:

Colette

Cassie

Coryphee

Coryphee Duet

Showgirl

Mannequin

(maybe) Gunsmith

(maybe) Johan

That's eight models, some of whom overlap quite a bit (the Coryphees primarily). Now, I'm not certain why having eight separate statlines is considered "complicated" or how someone would get all addlepated by the horrific complexity therein--heck, read the cards, people!

I would recommend that if a player wants to get into Malifaux starting with the Colette, you track down a Colette player and loan the new player a Lilith or Victoria crew and have them play against Colette. The new player gets to learn the basic game mechanics, get introduced to another crew, and is shown what the Showgirls do and how they do it. Sure, this is like teaching someone about sticks by violently beating them over the head with a stick, but it is very effective.

If someone told me "oh here, learn with this simple crew," I would, again, find another game to play. Maybe I'm just overly specific in my interests, but I am not playing Malifaux for the Arcanists, or the background, or anything else.

I am playing because I really dig on the Showgirls.

And yes, I meant the Performers. I tend to get those two nouns mixed up in my head.

Edited January 24, 2011 by JPRoth1980
Fixing quoteblocks!

[MrNybbles]

@JPRoth1980

Yes, you have won an excellent memory. (Actually you worked for it, but I digress). Yes, Cassandra has that ability which I haven't ever had a need to use yet. Now if I ever have unfinished business at the end of the game with a living Cassandra. . .

I don't see why teaching a person to play Colette by asking them if they would like to play against Colette is so bad. When one of the new players at our LGS wanted to play Colette's crew and this is what we did. We of course asked her if she would like to learn this way and she said yes. It works very well to see the Showgirls in action. In addition the Flying and Melee mechanics carry over to Colette's crew.

It's not like we said "You need to learn the basics first, play a few games with the Victorias and Lilith." That would defiantly be a downer.

Would playing against Colette really have been that insulting to you?

[Uncle]

Yes, you have won an excellent memory. (Actually you worked for it, but I digress). Yes, Cassandra has that ability which I haven't ever had a need to use yet. Now if I ever have unfinished business at the end of the game with a living Cassandra. . .

Completely agree there. I've yet to have a game in which Cassie is either alive or there's anything she could possibly do, primarily due to tabling the opponent--Gremlins don't last long, I've noticed. However, there's only six models (eight it you really want to argue) that you should be taking as a Colette player, so learning their rules isn't difficult.

I don't see why teaching a person to play Colette by asking them if they would like to play against Colette is so bad. When one of the new players at our LGS wanted to play Colette's crew and this is what we did. We of course asked her if she would like to learn this way and she said yes. It works very well to see the Showgirls in action. In addition the Flying and Melee mechanics carry over to Colette's crew.

I'm sure some people would be okay with it. However, I have no real intention on expanding my Malifaux collection beyond what it currently is, assuming no new Showgirls come out. And sure, it'd be a useful experience, but it's not one I'm willing to devote my very limited game time to.

It's not like we said "You need to learn the basics first, play a few games with the Victorias and Lilith." That would defiantly be a downer.

Would playing against Colette really have been that insulting to you?

It would not have been insulting at all, as I would have simply refused to do so. Had that been an issue with your group, then yes, it would have been insulting.

I suppose the reverse could be asked: if said player responded to your group with "No thanks, I'd rather play with the crew I'm interested in," would that have been an issue?

[Sholto]

The wording on the Performer's Irresistible is written to concise and straightforward. In a future errata it should be changed to involve playing a 6-turn 2-Soulstone sub-game of Malifaux using different Masters than those currently in play for each action targeting this model. If the attacker does not score more VP than the defender then the action fails.

I know this is huh? but what? :hmmmm:

[Jonas Albrecht]

Showgirls are a fine starter Crew. I taught a non-wargamer to play Malifaux with Colette as her first Master. She did great.

[eturns]

She has had experience of wargames, has palyed 2 editions of warhammer wit hBretonnians, wood elves and dwarfs.

Going to go for the girls, playing with a crew because they are easy is less likely to hold her interest that playing with a set of models she likes, also learning to play one way then having to learn a completely different style will be harder i guess than just learning a, maybe slightly harder, style in the first place. You just have to read the rules/tactica, lean were your strengths are and play to them.

Thanks all for the comments

[MrNybbles]

I suppose the reverse could be asked: if said player responded to your group with "No thanks, I'd rather play with the crew I'm interested in," would that have been an issue?

It would not be a problem, but a little more difficult for me to do. It's easier for me to perform an activation and explain what I'm doing and why than to tell you your options are A, B, C, and D, especially when A is "You could activate Colette, use your Artificial Soulstone to gain Reactivate, Discard two control cards to gain an extra Soulstone, then switch places with the Mannequin. Now because I don't have any models left to activate you can Reactivate Colette and cast Magician's duel twice, then, using the Soulstone you just created, summon a Mechanical Dove which may activate immediately after Colette thanks to A Trick of the Hat and have it cast Magician's Duel for the kill. If you manage to kill the model with Magician's Duel you'll get a nice new shinny Soulstone." I'm not sure how to make that more concise, but at least I can suggest it off the top of my head while the new player can look at the card.

Also, if you have had your arm ripped off my a previously harmless flock of Mechanical Doves and beaten to death with it then you may have more empathy for your opponents.

I know this is huh? but what? :hmmmm:

I have a strange sense of humor. In Magic: The Gathering they had a card that would result in the players playing a sub-game of MtG.

Also ". . .written to concise. . ." should have been ". . .written too concise. . ."

[Doctor Amos]

I have a strange sense of humor. In Magic: The Gathering they had a card that would result in the players playing a sub-game of MtG.

...I thought it was funny.

[MrNybbles]

...I thought it was funny.

Jokes often don't carry over well with different languages or even with different dialects of the same language.

According to Sholto's profile he is from Scotland while according to my profile I'm from Earth.

I once told a woman from Australia "We may both speak English, but it certainly isn't the same English" after she told me something along the lines of "I need a good root." At the time I had no idea what on earth she was talking about, but now I kinda wish I wasn't so blunt about it. Moving on. . .

[Doctor Amos]

According to Sholto's profile he is from Scotland while according to my profile I'm from Earth.

Also funny, depending on how one feels about the Scottish.

[Uncle]

It would not be a problem, but a little more difficult for me to do. It's easier for me to perform an activation and explain what I'm doing and why than to tell you your options are A, B, C, and D, especially when A is "You could activate Colette, use your Artificial Soulstone to gain Reactivate, Discard two control cards to gain an extra Soulstone, then switch places with the Mannequin. Now because I don't have any models left to activate you can Reactivate Colette and cast Magician's duel twice, then, using the Soulstone you just created, summon a Mechanical Dove which may activate immediately after Colette thanks to A Trick of the Hat and have it cast Magician's Duel for the kill. If you manage to kill the model with Magician's Duel you'll get a nice new shinny Soulstone." I'm not sure how to make that more concise, but at least I can suggest it off the top of my head while the new player can look at the card.

See, the odd thing there, for me, is that none of that manages to strike me as complicated at all. In fact, that was pretty much the first thing I realized upon going through her cards, and there's really no "interaction" there, either.

About the closest thing to "complicated interaction" I can even see regarding the Showgirls that doesn't involve dodgy rules (Celebrity, Fixable) would be the Performer's Poisoned Gift, if only because one has to plan very carefully in order to succeed at paralyzing an opponent. Sure, it's doable, but it's far from guaranteed.

Oh, and also the Mannequin's Companion ability, but I'd chalk that up to dodgy rules as well (no offense Wyrd). So I guess that doesn't really count as such.