Beating Pandora with Tina?

[Stargazer]

Ok so recently I've been playing against a Pandora crew with my Tina list. I've been doing ok (one draw one win) But I always get the feeling that they aren't exactly decisive victories and my opponent is still getting to grips with Pandora, so I think I might begin to feel the pain in the future!

The my usual list is:

Tina

Wendigo

2x Silent Ones

2x Sabertooth Ceberus'

I also own 2 Hoarcats and a Decembers Acolyte.

My opponent is running

Pandora

2x Sorrows

Kade

Stitched Together

Insidious Madness

Coppellius

The main issue I find is either the Stitched Together which gives the whole crew either cover or obscures them, and Copellius is just generally nasty, combined with Pandoras ability which makes you take wounds when you fail any Willpower duel!

I hope you can decipher my ramblings and any thoughts or tactics are most welcome!

Thanks

Stargazer

[ItchyDani3l]

I would drop the cerebus.

Pandora will just tear anything to shreds if it comes close with Wp duels, so what I would do is take 2 or 3 Gamin and an Ice Golem.

The idea is that you run the gamin into close combat with Pandora (hopefully) and then you use Rasputina's "December's Curse" and the Ice Golem's "Icy Burst" to deal damage either to Pandora OR your gamin.

If it hits your gamin, cheat his defense down and then cheat the damage up to deal damage to Pandora.

If you can make your Gamin take severe damage, then you can deal moderate damage to Pandora from and then do 2 damage from Shatter.

Edited December 19, 2010 by ItchyDani3l

[Alondir]

I just thought of a good one to stop the Los Block, take a gammin and run him into the cloud of mist, cant through him ss it and blast it all dwn.

Because most of ur crew has icy heart, u dont suffer the dreaded moral duels which helps a lot, as far as tips go;

nail the stitched early on in the game, dont wanna give him reactivate when the games gettin really close.

sorrows, there a pain but weak focus them and kill them, also if u have rasp she can use them to blast damage onto his more expensive models,

coppelius however tempting it is dont kill him with rasp, get him low and let somat cheap finish him,

the madness will hurt you, if not killed early on.

to sum up kill everything , but prioritise, Stitched and his fog gotta go early on, then madness, then sorrows, after that it doesn't matter much, but im not a big fan of the Sabour thingys against Pandora u dont wanna let her just pick off models.

a silent one might be nice to take they should be out soon

ice gollums are good to use the soooo tank,

oh an did i mention dont try and kill pandora when her minions are muuuuuch easier to drop (remember she loses so much damage when there dead)

oh and dont let that madness get close its episodes will be the end of you,

gl

[Stargazer]

Hmm an interesting one.. I find the Cerberus very good for grabbing objectives due to their speed as well as being pretty nasty in melee. The problem I'm having isn't really killing Padora as I have Decembers Curse and Freeze from the Silent ones which I can aim at the Sorrows Pandora inevitably has linked to her. It's more Coppellius and the Stitched Together (He's now thinking of runnning 2!) which are a pain.

Coppellius because of the ability to either summon alps/make easy healing flips/Paralyzing me. And the Stitched Together because it means I cant ever see his crew!! So my only real option is to kill them in melee. Also the fact the Stitched Together get another activation after you kill them is just a complete pain in the a**!

@Alondir I'm afraid to say I do!! as Pandora ignores any Immune to Morale Duel abilities

I already run 2 Silent Ones for the Ice mirror which has been working pretty well and I never go for Pandora straight away anyway. As I said thought the main problem is if he gets the initiative I cant shoot the Stitched Together at all. However that Ice mirror while in the fog sounds like a brilliant idea! Will have to give that a go!

So maybe keep the Silent Ones, drop both Cerberus and Wendigo and take Golem and 2 Gamin, only thing is will I then be too slow??

Keep em coming guys (and gals)

Edited December 19, 2010 by Stargazer

[ItchyDani3l]

Maybe you should take molemen then. They cost only 3 soulstones and are pretty nasty in melee if you use their abilities that grant them armor. (They can have up to 9 armor if you don't move them.)

[Mach_5]

One thing to remember is that Constructs don't take Morale Duels, only Living models take Morale Duels, so Gamin and Golem are safe from them even against Pandora.

So maybe keep the Silent Ones, drop both Cerberus and Wendigo and take Golem and 2 Gamin, only thing is will I then be too slow??

I think that's a good call. Essence of Power would be good too if you could fit it in. Use the Silent Ones' "North Wind" to increase the range of all your spells, Ice Mirror, gamin/golem ranged attacks, etc. Hit 'em from a distance and often. Let him come to you.

I agree priority should be the Stitched, followed by hitting anything nearby Pandora that will let you drop a blast on her. Drop all your soulstones into these hits to maximize your blast damage. You'll want lots of soulstones in this fight (7-8 IMO).

Edited December 19, 2010 by Mach_5

[Wodschow]

Okay some random ideas here, as usual I'm bad at organizing my flow of thoughts so it's not really coherent, but here goes:

Look at the table, if there's a good firing line consider taking Hans, with the Silent Ones' buff his range is an incredible 19" and he can see right through the Fog(!), with a Biting of Winter buff he can take the Stitched down in a single severe shot or two shots of just Weak damage.

You could do somewhat the same with the Acolyte his range is 'only' 15" though and weak damage is much less and he only gets a single shot, but can still one hit it with a Severe, so cheating high cards is more critical here.

But it depends alot on the Strategy and the Board of course. If speed isn't super critical I would drop the Saber(teeth?!) aswell, they drain masks for their mobility which Rasputina wants to use to blast stuff dead I've considering switching to Coryphée for a while (and am now waiting for them to arrive) which I think will work wonders for speed issues. You have to be very careful against Pandora here though as their Wp is a little low unless you do shenanigans (cast +2 Wp then Dance Together for a total of 8 Wp, but requires you to take two of them which is alot of points). They should have the speed to properly hit and run, even against Pandora, a very large risk though, but so are the Saber..teeth.

I'd also recommend using only one Silent One, but that is of course up to you, their best use to me is the Rg bonus which is achiveable with just one.

If the terrain is very cluttered you can probably shut down movement entirely which should bother most of Pandys crew (Coppelius and Insidious are unaffected though and rather fast :/ (but if Pandora isn't close-by most of your models are immune to Coppelius' most nasty stuff)) by making pockets with throwing Ice Pillars all over the place, have some Gamin ahead and blast through them.

I don't think Coppelius should be that much of a problem, you should have the range to him before he gets to you (9" Ice Mirror and 13" Curse for Rasputina is alot), and he really shouldn't be able to take much punishment from an Overpowering and Soul Stone'ing Rasputina, even if it's through a Mirror.

Oh and I'd almost always take the Essence aswell is just yummy!

Gah I don't know.. It really depends alot on your strategy, her strategy and the terrain on the board!!

Just remember Hans and Acolyte can both shoot the Stitched even when their Fog is up.

And if you win initiative (usually tough against Pandora, but he doesn't bring the Doppel so fair chance there), Rasputina too can just blast it dead before it puts up the Fog in the first place.

So as I've lost track of what I've written thus far it makes no sense for me to continue as I'd probably start repeating myself, those were just some ideas.

Edit:

Molemen are much too slow to ever catch Pandora so you will most likely never get to blast through them or use their Blindsight. Armor is also next to useless against Pandoras usual way of dealing damage.

They do have a fair amount of Wp though.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Wodschow

[Stargazer]

Thanks for the input people this is really useful!

@Itchy I can see what you mean about the molemen so will definitely have a look at them for future games, however as Woodschow says I think they are a little slow for use against Pandora.

@Mach 5 Are you sure about the constructs thing?!? Cos if so that's very useful although I could have sworn I saw something in the Rules section saying otherwise but cant for the life of me find it. Would you mind citing a page or something? I probably should have said at the beginning that we play 30ss games so I dont think I can squeeze in the essence of power or 8ss but any example lists are of course welcome.

@Woodschow Thanks for the reply it was very informative (and not too rambly ) I think Hans is a good option that i hadn't thought of although he is a little pricey but I presume you think he's worth it? I think Corphyree might be worth it although I agree they are really at their best when they dance together and I'm not sure I have 14ss spare. Yeah I think the trick just to make sure I hit what I want to hit before the fog is up/kill the Stitched Together quickly!

My only thought now is that although Tina is at her best shooting will the list not then have too much shooting without enough combat? Only reason I say that is because the crew isnt the speediest and if something does hit the lines I can see a whole world of hurt coming my way.

[M_Ruckuss]

Thanks for the input people this is really useful!

@Itchy I can see what you mean about the molemen so will definitely have a look at them for future games, however as Woodschow says I think they are a little slow for use against Pandora.

@Mach 5 Are you sure about the constructs thing?!? Cos if so that's very useful although I could have sworn I saw something in the Rules section saying otherwise but cant for the life of me find it. Would you mind citing a page or something? I probably should have said at the beginning that we play 30ss games so I dont think I can squeeze in the essence of power or 8ss but any example lists are of course welcome.

@Woodschow Thanks for the reply it was very informative (and not too rambly ) I think Hans is a good option that i hadn't thought of although he is a little pricey but I presume you think he's worth it? I think Corphyree might be worth it although I agree they are really at their best when they dance together and I'm not sure I have 14ss spare. Yeah I think the trick just to make sure I hit what I want to hit before the fog is up/kill the Stitched Together quickly!

My only thought now is that although Tina is at her best shooting will the list not then have too much shooting without enough combat? Only reason I say that is because the crew isnt the speediest and if something does hit the lines I can see a whole world of hurt coming my way.

1)Again without being able to cite anything conclusive the box opens states that all models within 12" "lose all immunities to Wp duels". p78 original book states that morale duels are made using Wp, and are thus a type of will power duel (in the same way resisting an attack or spell using Wp is). I would, therefore, conclude that if constructs are immune to morale duels, or Wp duels, they would lose this when withing 12" of Pandora.

2) I love the Hans idea, would work really well dude- I didn't realise my crew was giving you so much of a Headache- I take it the days of an all Kitty list are now long gone! lol

In all honesty I hadnt thought of hans before, but thats a cool idea Wodschow!

May I ask why they ignore line of sight through the fog? Is it the googles, sniper rule or both?

The acolyte can see through 6"due to hunter, right. so I take it if i put the stitched togethers fog behind just over 2" of cover this would be cumalative and block line of sight?

Gamin and Golems are meant for her. Them with snowstorm could be cool.

Essence of power defienetly awesome- but your Wendigo looks awesome, you have a dilemma my friend!!

I would stick with your list till/if I finally manage to record a win! Your play the crew really well. Hans and Gamins may well be a way forward, and the EofP would be brutal with Tina.

That and the 2 silent ones acting as ice mirrors is something you havent described here bud: that castling up was what one it for u: it was brilliantly done!! I couldnt get around you and you had near-complete LofS (bar fog) for all Tinas spells... for 12ss thats only 4 more than a sabre. Chuck in the EofP, and you still have 16ss of goodies left (sabres route or golem and 2 gamin)

Dont forget if you tailor your crew to be too static, Bringer of Death will out manouvre you... I like the 2 silent ones (although there is currently only 1model for her, which may sway you away from her)

Hope my ramblings habe at least a suggestion of somethingly passably helpful bud...

[Stargazer]

1) still no idea lol will have to wait for Mach to get back to us.

2) Both Hans and the Acolyte have Hunter allowing them to see through 6" of obscuring terrain instead of 3". The Kitty list isnt gone, I am merely exploring other possible routes .

Oh yeh thanks for reminding me about the castling mate. Pretty much guys I kept Tina behind cover then had the 2 silent ones either side of her both boosting the range of her spells and allowing her to use perfect mirror through them, making a large area of control in front of me.

I know what you are saying about BoD however I dont mind him being more maneuverable as that's pretty standard however as long as I can shoot him then no probs.

Still not sure about melee capabilities tho.. any thoughts gents?

[M_Ruckuss]

1) still no idea lol will have to wait for Mach to get back to us.

2) Both Hans and the Acolyte have Hunter allowing them to see through 6" of obscuring terrain instead of 3". The Kitty list isnt gone, I am merely exploring other possible routes .

Oh yeh thanks for reminding me about the castling mate. Pretty much guys I kept Tina behind cover then had the 2 silent ones either side of her both boosting the range of her spells and allowing her to use perfect mirror through them, making a large area of control in front of me.

I know what you are saying about BoD however I dont mind him being more maneuverable as that's pretty standard however as long as I can shoot him then no probs.

Still not sure about melee capabilities tho.. any thoughts gents?

I'm pretty sure Karn has pointed the Wp thing out to me, but I may be wrong...please correct if so.

No worries- it worked a treat.

Hunter may ignore 6" but the diameter of the cloud is 8", so I should be able to protect my stitched by placing him behing a further 2" of cover (as I did for the first 3 turns by having more than 2" of woods between your models and the bubble, keeping him pretty safe (although i properly chimped the IM and Kade...Ice mirrored should be a new verb!)

You dont want to be in Melee, so either keep with the sabres and keep devloping how you play with them, replace them with 3 hoarcat prides (x3 devour a turn- OUCH) or try the golem/gamin route. I like the kitties, but you almost needed x2 7+ masks in your hand- one to leap out to the objective, grab it and move it, then move then leap he turn after, allowing something else to pick it up.

The moles would make bloody annoying models to play. Cant believe i'm saying this but- couldnt you keep them still, get them in combat, armour up then decembers curse them, hope you hit your own model, cheat defence low, get blasts and hit opponents models...? I'd say against spirit of the game, but I know others argue thats what minions are there for so each to their own. Of course this may be a silly suggestion- i just thought it could be a little broken/wrong/nasty.

[Mach_5]

Sorry, I wasn't 100% accurate. Only living models are affected by Terrifying (see rulebook). So the constructs will not be affected by Terrifying abilities from Coppelius, Kade, or Pandora's spell that makes them treat enemy models as terrifying. The only other Morale Duel I think that crew has is the one Coppelius has when he gains an eye counter, and that specifically only affects living models as well.

That's not to say there aren't plenty of regular Wp duels that'll affect your constructs, but I don't see any morale duels in this Pandora crew that would affect your constructs, even with The Box Opens.

[M_Ruckuss]

Sorry, I wasn't 100% accurate. Only living models are affected by Terrifying (see rulebook). So the constructs will not be affected by Terrifying abilities from Coppelius, Kade, or Pandora's spell that makes them treat enemy models as terrifying. The only other Morale Duel I think that crew has is the one Coppelius has when he gains an eye counter, and that specifically only affects living models as well.

That's not to say there aren't plenty of regular Wp duels that'll affect your constructs, but I don't see any morale duels in this Pandora crew that would affect your constructs, even with The Box Opens.

Found some refs I was given Apparently the ruling about constructs in one page 1 of the errata- they are now immune to morale duels (a type of Wp duel) which is then stripped away by the box opens. Thus they can be made to flee by Pandoras trigger, but not made to take terrifying tests by other models or any other effects which state "living or undead only".

They would also obviously lose wounds when failing to resist her spells where Wp is the defence. Hope this helps guys

Edited December 21, 2010 by McDoogle

[Mach_5]

True, though to be clear Pandora's trigger is in no way a Morale Duel, nor are the spells that trigger it. It simply causes a model to Fall Back, so it applies to all models in the game (bypassing all immunities/models unaffected by Morale Duels). And like you said, while they'd theoretically be forced to take a Morale Duel despite being Immune to Morale Duels (thanks to the Box Opens), they aren't affected by the Morale Duel if it doesn't specifically target that model type (ie Terrifying and Coppelius' Deeply Disturbing only ever affect living models).

Whew!

[M_Ruckuss]

True, though to be clear Pandora's trigger is in no way a Morale Duel, nor are the spells that trigger it. It simply causes a model to Fall Back, so it applies to all models in the game (bypassing all immunities/models unaffected by Morale Duels). And like you said, while they'd theoretically be forced to take a Morale Duel despite being Immune to Morale Duels (thanks to the Box Opens), they aren't affected by the Morale Duel if it doesn't specifically target that model type (ie Terrifying and Coppelius' Deeply Disturbing only ever affect living models).

Whew!

Sorry, bad phrasing on the first point. Yeah, I meant that if an ability/trigger etc said "target living/undead model must make a morale duel or...."then of cause it wouldnt apply, like those you have cited. There are others which state "target model". These, surely, would apply...???

[Mach_5]

Yep, if an ability/spell/etc said "target model takes a Morale Duel" without specifying a type, then it would affect any model within The Box Opens 12" range.

[Mach_5]

I had a good look through both books and found only three instances of Morale Duels that don't specifically target living models, and those are:

The Lawyer's "Cross Examination" spell,

The Mature Nephilim's "Rip in Half" trigger, and

The Hanged "Last Words" action.

These three all cause Morale Duels against any model, and if they were to happen to be within "the box opens" range would even affect models normally Immune to Morale Duels.

Pretty short list.

[M_Ruckuss]

I had a good look through both books and found only three instances of Morale Duels that don't specifically target living models, and those are:

The Lawyer's "Cross Examination" spell,

The Mature Nephilim's "Rip in Half" trigger, and

The Hanged "Last Words" action.

These three all cause Morale Duels against any model, and if they were to happen to be within "the box opens" range would even affect models normally Immune to Morale Duels.

Pretty short list.

Thats pretty dedicated...

I never referred to any implications, efficacy or potential impact of this ruling, only its existence

[Mach_5]

As a Pandora player I was curious.

Might be fun to take a Mature Nephilim against Resurrectionists in future...

[Doctor Amos]

Thats pretty dedicated...

I never referred to any implications, efficacy or potential impact of this ruling, only its existence

As mentioned elsewhere, Mach 5 is Conan the Librarian. ::muses about writing up a stablock::

[M_Ruckuss]

As a Pandora player I was curious.

Might be fun to take a Mature Nephilim against Resurrectionists in future...

If page 1 of the erratta says "replace ignore to 'are immune to'" then why wouldnt a terrifying 12/12 model affect constructs who are within 12" of Pandora, who has stripped away their errated IMMUNITY?

I appreciate that a construct is described as a non-living model, but I thought the point of the new wording was that it could be ignored by certain abilties? Is short, do constructs a) still ignore terrifying,and/or fall back on Pandoras Trigger (crow)?

[Mach_5]

If something is "Immune to Morale duels" then The Box Opens would cancel this immunity. However, Terrifying is a special type of Morale Duel, and the rules for Terrifying state that only living models take Terrifying tests. The fact that the construct is no longer Immune to Morale Duels doesn't matter, as only Living models take the test. Make sense?

Similarly, almost every other ability in the game that is considered a Morale Duel (there aren't that many) also only specifically target Living models, so again , even though the construct has lost its immunity to Morale Duels, it wouldn't be forced to take a Morale Duel that only targets Living Models.

So, for example Coppelius' ability "Deeply Disturbing" causes "living models within 3"" to take a Morale Duel. Despite not being immune to Morale Duels, a Construct wouldn't take this test.

Conversely, the Mature Nephilim's Rip in Half trigger makes "all enemy models within 6"" take a Morale Duel, so a Construct within range of The Box Opens would have to take this Morale Duel.

And to your specific questions:

(a) they would still be unaffected by Terrifying, and

( they would always be affected by something that caused them to simply Fall Back, even if The Box Opens wasn't in range, since it is not a Morale Duel and there aren't any models in the game that are Immune to or Ignore "Falling Back".

Edited December 28, 2010 by Mach_5

[M_Ruckuss]

(a) they would still be unaffected by Terrifying, and

( they would always be affected by something that caused them to simply Fall Back, even if The Box Opens wasn't in range, since it is not a Morale Duel and there aren't any models in the game that are Immune to or Ignore "Falling Back".

Cheers Mach. Makes sense. In other words, its just being careful who you hit what with. I take it this means Undead and Nightmares are also unaffected by this

[Mach_5]

Yep, same reasoning applies to Undead, Nightmares, and Spirits.

[M_Ruckuss]

Yep, same reasoning applies to Undead, Nightmares, and Spirits.

Cheers dude