My Biggest Problem With Dreamer...

[kasin666]

@ Wodschow

I'm more than happy not to open the "are book two models more powerful" can of worms.

I'd been thinking Avatar forms were something masters gained during the game, at some sort of cost / under certain conditions, for a limited time.

So maybe I discard five soulstones to replace my master with my masters avatar form until the end of the turn.

:focus:

Has anyone tried keeping a Day Dream back in their deployment zone to act as an anchor / emergency exit.

Just sitting there unburying nightmares to regen, and LCB to pull the dreamer out of dodge?

i did that and my opponent threw in the towel oh and the day dream could bury itself to get back to the fight

[quotemyname]

Thanks for doing what I was about to do, mythicFOX. Also, that back to topic smiley is brilliant, hah.

Yea, keeping a daydream in a "safe zone" sounds like a great idea, but more often than not, I'm finding that I really want three of those buggers in and around the bulk of my crew and the action to support, recal, reposition, whatever. One game, I only bought two of them, and was really hurting for it.

Anyone else have some bright ideas about how to get around early turn activations for dreamer?

[anathema]

Yeah, Collette is 100% movement. Especially considering how easy it is for her crew to move ridiculous distances to grab objectives and to complete her 2 default schemes she's very tough to beat.

I played 2/3 of my games against Collette crews at my first and so far only Malifaux event and my mate regularly plays her, its like wrestling jelly. Haven't played her with the Dreamer yet, but I am extremely worried about him getting battered early on. Coryphee duets can vastly outrange him and can put out serious damage.

As for early turn activations, depends heavily what you want to do and Strats and schemes. The Dreamer plus 2-3 Daydreams is 4 activations, you can always stick a couple of non-essential models to dick about accompanied by a Daydream to bury them if you're worried about being out-activated in turn 1, but the crux of the matter is that you want to have some stuff buried before you strike which will mean a low activation count that turn if you want to get the most of your buried minions.

Not sure how to mitigate that other than to accept that either a Daydream or the Dreamer will be going early on and bombing something before the turn really starts for you.

Edited December 8, 2010 by anathema

[quotemyname]

So far, I think the best way to get around this was what was mentioned earlier in this thread.

In your deployment zone, surround one of your daydreams with a load of Alps, or other nightmares that don't require activation to be (as) effective. My other pick would be coppelius. While his attacks are great, he has terrifying, and a few other auras that make him a threat when he's just standing there.

Activate them all early on. Waste your opponent's activations in this way.

Then use the daydream to bury the lot of them. You can either leave the daydream there, as a way out during later turns, or you can bury him as well with the intention of moving him up with the rest of your squad.

The plan is to then drop the units that are still dangerous without their activations on your opponent's completely activated crew. Alps will stay in play, and pin down whoever they will, Coppelius can be there for the terrifying at the start of the next turn, etc.

My idea is to put the pressure on early turn 2 rather than early turn 1. Hopefully this will work!

Wish me luck, sounds like I'll get another attempt at this on Sunday.

[mythicFOX]

Good luck with your game.

Make sure you post to let us know how you got on.

[pugwhan]

Since I think this would help The Dreamer on turn 1 I'm putting it here. According to the dreamer power Shared Actions:

This model and Lord Chompy Bits may use a maximum of 3 general AP per turn between them. Pass Actions do not count against this total

.

Does that mean the following is possible.

I deploy 3 Day Dreams and The Dreamer at the start of the game.

Turn 1 - Dreamer activates and uses 2 pass actions. Opponent then goes. I then activate Day Dream. Opponent goes again. I then activate another Day Dream, this one moves and then using magical extension casts "Frightening Dream" and places LCB within 6 inches. Day Dream then uses a the (0)action and does a Calm Nightmare to bury LCB and return the Dreamer to play. Dreamer now activates as per "One Master"

This model is included in any Crew hiring The Dreamer and always starts the Encounter Buried. This model may never be in play at the same time as The Dreamer. When this model is brought into play, this model's controller must bury The Dreamer and this model activates immediately. Any time The Dreamer is brought into play bury this model and activate the Dreamer immediately. Totems connected to the Dream are connected to Lord Chompy Bits as well

.

Dreamer uses "Frightening Dreams" with its trigger and tosses out a bunch of Nightmares including LCB within 6 inches, and is able surround an enemy model (preferably a Master). LCB using "One Master" now activates and attacks using "Melee Master" and hopefully manages to use the trigger "onslaught" to attack repeatedly. His final attack uses the trigger "All Done" and now The Dreamer is back. The Dreamer now activates "I can Fly" and moves out of the enemy range and into hiding.

At this point LCB and The Dreamer have only used 2 actual action points from their pool.

Opponent moves again.

I activate last Day Dream and he moves twice and casts "Frightening Dreams" via magical extension to bring LCB back into play. LCB still has "melee master" so if directly in melee range starts smacking someone around or if needed actually moves then attacks.

After all of this, the team still should have some other nightmares out and still available for activation as needed.

Is that legal? Meaning using the 2 pass actions on The Dreamer first thing would normally end activations for him but "Shared Actions" seems to make this legal. This can work even better if The Dreamers team loses initiative on the first turn since that would force the opposing team to have 2 activations without The Dreamer actually using any.

The 2nd question I have is on some wording. According to the rules:

pg. 44

Some actions require zero AP, indicated by (0) preceding the Action. A model may only use one (0) action during its activation

Reading that it is 1 0 point action per activation and that LCB and The Dreamer "activate immediately" when swapped does that mean that they can each use a 0 point action every time they activate? Combine that with The Dreamers "instinctual" ability that could be a lot of 0 point activations getting tossed around if you manage to play the swap game correctly.

[Ratty]

I don't think either of those work, as I believe each of them may only activate once per turn unless they have reactivate. The Bury LCB activate the Dreamer works like most Masters give a model companion(Master) abilities, Which say activate this model after the Masters Activation. It just allows you to take 2 activations in a row, not activate for a second time.

[DangerousBeans]

I don't play the Dreamer, but I've faced him a couple of times and he is by far and wide the best master (or model, in fact) ever to use "off the board" tactics with.

Like people have mentioned, you can position a few key models so that your enemy won't know where anything's going to appear, it gives you MASSIVE control over what the opponent does in the early turns while they wait tentatively for you to dump your load on them. Use this to your advantage and it won't really matter if you're out-activated or not.

If you split your daydreams/dreamer up the enemy will either:

- split their forces, allowing you to effectively chose how the battle will be fought and you're mobile enough to run past their front liners to take out some key support models (silent ones, austringers or anything else that basically hangs back).

- Bunch up into a brick, which is where your alps will really shine. Get LCB in there and watch him kill everything very, very quickly. Just save your soulstones to mitigate reprisals.

Obviously, this tactic won't do so well if you wait too long and allow your opponent to grab/achieve his strategies/schemes. Usually about turn 3 is when you should be aiming for.

Personally I hate facing the Dreamer, but it always makes for an exciting and different game.

[oozeboss]

I think that you've hit the nail on the head (and you a non-Dreamer, as well!!!) in that timing is everything. Start springing the ambushes too early & you get squished in the inevitable riposte, or too late & you will have missed the bus. :driver:

So far I've managed every option except the right one. :help:

I watched Tiny use his Dreamer crew against a Seamus gang on Friday night (providing a barrage of inane commentary from the cheap seats, as one does), and I learnt an incredible amount from his coherent & focused strikes. He literally dismembered the Hatter's harem clinically & cleanly, and his use of companioned Daydreams to withdraw LCB after each sortie was a revelation.

I'll be resuming my learning curve early in the New Year (when my lot are fully painted), but Friday was a huge step forward for me, even though I didn't play at all.

:elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant::elefant: