Tell it to Queen Doppolopogus

[Q'iq'el]

Are doppels really that good? I love the model so may have to get one; it seems my fellow'born brethern all rate her highly-there may be less synergy with lilith (from what I have briefly read here) but I plan Pandora to be my next master/mistress anyways!!!!

I hear for Pandora it is a must have (as it is a Woe and has special synergy with her).

As a Lilith player I still find it very useful, though not necessary (gets traded out for other models depending on the scenario and opponent). The major benefit comes from on initiative rolls - it's always nice to go first when you're Lilith.

Then there's the fact it takes only minimal effort for the model to be what you need the most in the every turn, even if it isn't the best at being it (i.e. it's Nephilim's Army Knife).

Last but not least, Lilith crews tend to be focused on movement and melée. A Doppelganger can borrow for you what your opponent is good at (and usually weak against). This makes it a solid can-opener against the lists set up specifically to fight Lilith and her Nephilim.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Matamane]

Collodi will be fun with her

[Wodschow]

I hear for Pandora it is a must have (as it is a Woe and has special synergy with her).

While it's true that it's incredible useful for Pandora and that it is a Woe those two are not really connected, you seldomly use the Woe trait on it for anything. It really just boils down to the fact that Pandora have some of the strongest abilities in the game.

I'd rate the usefulness for the different Masters in the following way:

:GOO-d: Pandora - Zoraida - Lilith - the Dreamer :Bad:

It does alot for Pandora, is useful with Zoraida, can be of some help for Lilith (but certainly not a must have) and I wouldn't bother about it at all were I taking the Dreamer.

[magicpockets]

Take one with Zoriada and copy Summon Voodoo Doll, that's two wicked dolls per turn. Then if you Raven Zoriada away, copy Hags Toys off a wicked doll and zip the DG back to Zoriada.

Also (may have been mentioned) take a DG and 3 sorrows with pandora. Copy emotional trauma and unhealthy relationship, then sorrows in base contact with DG can use her mimic to also copy emotional trauma - 5 wounds for a failed WP test anyone?

And don't forget you can copy a beatstick weapon (bad juju, mature nep etc) and also Use Soulstones to deal some heavy damage in combat, or even at range.

[magicpockets]

Ah, love is a warm Doppla!

The initiative flips have already been so rightfully lauded. I have her running in a Zoraida crew these daze, and Obey and Raven both transition wonderfully. It means that between the Doppla, the Doll & the Hag, I can cast 3 Obey's per turn.

[/

"Dance, dance, dance ... Baby!"

I try to include it in every Neverborn list I draft, even if it is an indulgence at times.

(And the miniature itself is elegance made pewter.)

Activate the doll first and companion Zoriada. That's then one obey with the doll, obey with Zoriada, summon new voodoo doll, obey with new doll, and obey with DG - I count four

[Wodschow]

Take one with Zoriada and copy Summon Voodoo Doll, that's two wicked dolls per turn. Then if you Raven Zoriada away, copy Hags Toys off a wicked doll and zip the DG back to Zoriada.

Neither of those actions can be copied as they mention models by names.

The Voodoo Doll in Summon Voodoo Doll and Zoraida in Hags Toys.

[magicpockets]

Hmmm, we've always took it that only applies to the target model (i.e. copying a Zoriada skill if it mentions Zoriada herself) - that would make sense, but not the way you suggested

[PlasticBoy]

Hmmm, we've always took it that only applies to the target model (i.e. copying a Zoriada skill if it mentions Zoriada herself) - that would make sense, but not the way you suggested

That is also what I thought the Errata meant.

[magicpockets]

Errata says "effects" that reference a model by name cannot be copied - so surely spells etc would be fine.

[Q'iq'el]

Errata says "effects" that reference a model by name cannot be copied - so surely spells etc would be fine.

Doesn't a spell description actually describe the effect taking place when the spell goes off?

You cast the spell, the spell causes the effect of "summoning the Voodoo Doll". Voodoo doll is a name of the model and it definitely is "summoned" as the effect of the spell, hence you get an effect that mentions model by name. Ergo you cannot copy it.

Does it say anywhere it is limited to the spells that mention the caster by name? I don't think so, but I may be mistaken here.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[tadaka]

Activate the doll first and companion Zoriada. That's then one obey with the doll, obey with Zoriada, summon new voodoo doll, obey with new doll, and obey with DG - I count four

Toss in hamlin for 5 If you land his trigger make it 6.

[magicpockets]

Doesn't a spell description actually describe the effect taking place when the spell goes off?

You cast the spell, the spell causes the effect of "summoning the Voodoo Doll". Voodoo doll is a name of the model and it definitely is "summoned" as the effect of the spell, hence you get an effect that mentions model by name. Ergo you cannot copy it.

Does it say anywhere it is limited to the spells that mention the caster by name? I don't think so, but I may be mistaken here.

Summon Voodoo Doll isn't a spell, nor is Hag's Toys. Plus "effect" is a specific game term which covers things like Bite of Winter

[Q'iq'el]

Summon Voodoo Doll isn't a spell, nor is Hag's Toys. Plus "effect" is a specific game term which covers things like Bite of Winter

Actually effect is rather broad game term which includes anything that modifies the status of your model and which isn't originally printed on the status card.

So as far as I understand, being summoned, whether by an ability or a spell, is still an effect (as it moves the model from not being in play to being in play). But perhaps I stretch the definition too much.

This is one interesting thread I remember:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7345&highlight=effect&page=2

I vaguely remember there being another, about effects in general, but I cannot find it now.

[magicpockets]

Effect has never been successfully defined, there's millions (nearly) of threads on what an effect is because of the "does xyz stack" question. I'm sure it'll be looked at with the new erratas though.

On a side, I'm going to start playing as wodschow suggests as it'll change the dynamic of my game (which has got a little boring with Zoraida/DG factory). But I'm into Pandora at the minute so won't be anytime soon

[Mach_5]

My $0.02:

Malifaux pg 63 "Spell Description: Lists the spell's effects." (emphasis mine)

From Doppleganger errata "Effects that reference a model by name cannot be mimicked"

So a spell by definition causes an "effect", and "effects" that reference "a model" by name cannot be mimicked. IMO, this reads the same as "Effects that reference any model", otherwise it would have to say something like "Effects that reference the model" or "... the model itself".

[Mach_5]

Sorry, just realized we weren't talking about spells.

[Mach_5]

Malifaux pg 73: "A trigger is a talent that requires certain conditions to occur, including an activating event and one or more suits in the model's Duel total, before its game effect begins."

So a trigger creates a game effect, and while "effect" isn't mentioned elsewhere under Abilities and Triggers this line implies that all of the above also create a game effect (otherwise there wouldn't be a need to explain that the way a trigger game effect comes into play is different from that of any other talent).

RAW, it's a little foggy, but IMO the RAI is clear. No mimicking any talent or spell which mentions any model by name.