Targetting the Dreamer

[Wodschow]

Okay made a better compilation of things to watch out for when playing and playing against the Dreamer.

Note that to even meet the conditions for some of those ways listed can be rather difficult and it might very well be easier to simply kill the Nightmares than it is to pull them off, that wasn't the intention with the thread however, so here goes:

Always:

Perditas Quick Draw

Samaels Ricochet Trigger

Electrical Creations Shocking Touch

Molemens Strikes thanks to their Blindsight

Liliths Whirling Death

Alps' passive abilities

Lelus Thoughts Twisted

Bayou Gremlins Y'all Watch This

Any model with Wicked when/if the Dreamer attempts to disengage (Lilith,Lilitu,LordChompyBits,MechanicalRider)

If there's only one Nightmare within 3" of the Dreamer, target said Nightmare with one of the following:

Franciscos Fannin' Trigger

Kaeris' Turn it Up Trigger

Viktorias' Whirlwind Trigger

Obey or a similar effect (Perdita,Zoraida,Hamelin the Plagued - and their totems, Abuela, Hamelin the Ratcatcher)

If there's less than 3 Nightmares within 3" of the Dreamer and each other:

Automatic Fire (Mechanical Attendant, Guild Guard Captain and Ryle)

If the Dreamer has somehow lost a wound and no Nightmare within 3" is below 3Wd:

Leveticus' Entropic Transformation

Soulstone Miners Extract Soul

If the there is no Nightmare below 4Wd within 3" of the Dreamer:

Gakis Absorb

If there is no Ht1 Nightmare within 3" of the Dreamer:

Gakis Devour Anything

If the Dreamer is the closest model to (but not engaged with) any of the following:

Razorspine (Serpent Strike)

Teddy (Out of Control)

Stampeding Pigs

Killjoy (turn three and onwards, and only if there's no enemy in his melee range)

If there's no Immune to Influence Nightmares within 3" of the Dreamer:

Pandora's Incite/Pacify (after all Nightmares within 3" of the Dreamer have been Incited/Pacified)

Asked some of the questions here, so the list should be all good.

Still interested in a confirmation on the ruling on firing into melee however, as that'd actually be a plausibel way of getting to the Dreamer.

*edit*

Removed:

Sonnias Inferno as it'll be changed to a pulse (I think).

Added:

Wicked.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Wodschow

[karn987]

Remember, you do NOT have to be in range of the other Nightmare within 3" of the Dreamer. You only have to have LOS to it so it is targetible. So half of the things you list are nearly impossible to pull off or no more viable then a regular attack.

Sonnia's Inferno is extremely viable as it is not a pulse, or an aura and does not target. THAT will actually work.

Same goes for Samael's Ricochet.

Things like Lilith's Whirling death are iffy because you are making Strikes and thus have to target the models I think. You resolve them each individually, so I think you end up targeting them all. Not 100% on this, never had to look into it before.

But yeah, anything that is not an Aura, Pulse, or Blast and does not target (like the Alps and Sonnia's Inferno) are GREAT against the Dreamer. Otherwise you mostly have to rely on killing the Nightmares first.

But otherwise a good list and I think needed for a lot of people. Just keep in mind, Shadowy only requires you to have another Nightmare within 3" that is also a possible target and when you target something, you determine LOS. Then once you have LOS you measure range, so to target all you need is LOS. So Teddy is a great protector since he is Ht 3 Hard to Wound 2 and Regen 2.

I think a few of these like Pandora's Incite/Pacify needs a Marshal's vetting before it can really be used because I don't see that as possible. You target (check LOS), then go through the rest of the motions of the ability. Unless it says "You may not target a model with Pacify/Incite on them" I don't think it would work.

The other thing is what wins, Must Target or Shadowy? I really don't know =D

Edited November 7, 2010 by karn987

[Wodschow]

Hmm you're right in what you're saying about targetting and LoS, which means all that I said about eyemeasuring and careful placement is futile.

On the others I did say that some of them required unreasonable conditions to be met

I'm fairly certain Lilith would get to hit the Dreamer with her whirl as she gets to attack everyone in range, the attack that she gets on the Dreamer couldn't have targetted something else.

Likewise with Perditas Quick Draw - when the Dreamer wishes to cast a spell you decide to use it and at that moment the Dreamer is the only model you're allowed to target. Nasty.

I also think 'Must Target' trumps 'Shadowy Form', the attack couldn't have targetted a nearby Nightmare as it must target the Dreamer.

On Incite/Pacify and Gakis Absorb and Devour Anything (and everything else in the list that requires the target to be something special) I agree that we probably need a Rules Marshal to give his final word.

- Though I must say that to me it seems very strange if it's ruled in a way so that Gakis standing next to Teddy and Dreamer have to target the bear with Devour Anything, even though Teddy cannot be affected by Devour Anything.

Hmm.. should probably revise the list.. later..

[kbdrand]

It has been ruled before that Lilith's whirling death does NOT need LOS. It's in the rules forums somewhere (to lazy to go find the link).

[Sandwich]

How would Levi hit him with Entropic Transformation?

Wouldn't the Dreamer just say "lolno you do that to Teddy."

And then the spell would fail...?

If I'm correct the defense for Entropic Transformation is Wp, and he's immune to that, correct?

[Wodschow]

*moved to first post and corrected*

Edited December 19, 2010 by Wodschow

[karn987]

Devour Anything would not work. It does not say you may only target a Ht 1 model with it, so you could target Teddy, it just wouldnt do anything. You would need to get out of LOS of the Teddy.

Shadowy Form does not sloth attacks off onto other Nightmares. It prevents you form Targeting the Dreamer. So Levy would have to kill all Nightmares within 3" of the Dreamer before he could target him. Not sure on Entropic Transformation though... really need marshal input on how Shadowy Form interacts with things like this.

I don't think Must Target would override Shadowy Form... I really need to see a marshal ruling on this. I could see it going either way, but I just dont know which way it will swing.

Automatic Fire says "Up to 2" so the Dreamer I believe could still not be targeted because there is no must, and you are targeting them as I read it. Guess it really boils down to, does this target? If it does, it wont work. If it doesn't, then it will.

We're getting there, just need a few things answered by the marshals and I think the list will be golden.

Edited November 7, 2010 by karn987

[Wodschow]

So you can use a spell that says 'Sacrifice target Ht 1 model.' on a Ht2 or Ht3 model, just.. nothing happens?

I want a Rules Marshal on that one aswell xD just seems too strange to me.

But if that is the case the Gakis spells, Leveticus' Entropic Transformation, Soulstone Miners Extract Soul and Pandoras Incite/Pacify + Emotional Trauma won't work unless there's no Nightmares within 3".

That would certainly tidy up the list.

I really don't see why Automatic Fire shouldn't work.. I can Strike up to 3 enemies, if there's only 2 Nightmares next to the Dreamer then I can use the third Strike on the Dreamer as there is no 'friendly Nightmare that could have been targeted by the Action' instead (each of the two Nightmare can only be targetted once and both have already been targetted).

It's the same reasoning with the 'Must Target'.. If the Dreamer is the closest model to the attacker then there cannot be a 'friendly Nightmare that could have been targeted by the Action' instead, simply because the action can only target the Dreamer.

I suppose we should just post in the rules section already, but meh

Edited November 7, 2010 by Wodschow
minor stuff on wording

[Q'iq'el]

Somehow I think Whirling Death wouldn't work, just like Thoughts Twisted. These abilities may not require player intentionally targeting the Dreamer, but they do target him for the purpose of the strike/damage.

In other words, those are "Actions" that "target" The Dreamer.

Now if you look at the wording of Shadowy Form it doesn't prohibit models from targeting the Dreamer. It prohibits Actions from targeting him.

That's why I think essentially any action, be it Strike, Cast, a trigger or an ability which targets opponents, will be useless.

I think it is pretty clear this is impassable defense and only actions that damage without targeting (while not being blasts, pulses and auras) can bypass this. All the other cases mean you have to deal with bodyguards first.

[tadaka]

If it was so all inclusive why even bother adding in if they could be a target? I think any thing that would make him the only valid target would work. IE gaki sacrifice effects.

[Wodschow]

I don't agree with you in your interpretation Q'iq'el.

Firstly Lelu's Thoughts Twisted surely targets, but it isn't an action so as you argued yourself nothing 'prohibits' you from choosing the Dreamer as the target.

Secondly even actions can target the Dreamer just fine as long as they couldn't have targetted a Nightmare within 3".

When you use Whirling Death you receive one Strike action against each model close to Lilith, that would include the Dreamer. The Strike she receives against the Dreamer can only target the Dreamer, so it's allowed to target him.

If I'm not correct about this, then it makes no sense to include the last part of the wording on Shadowy Form and it could simply have been phrased like this:

Shadowy Form: This model cannot be targeted by an enemy Action while it is within 3" of a friendly Nightmare.

[Q'iq'el]

If it was so all inclusive why even bother adding in if they could be a target? I think any thing that would make him the only valid target would work. IE gaki sacrifice effects.

It's not all inclusive. Sonnia's inferno would still work. There may be more attacks like that I don't remember about and there may be even more in the future.

[karn987]

Well Wodschow, why dont you make the posts in the rules section and we can move on =D

[Wodschow]

I generally refrain from asking too many questions in the Rules Section because I think they'd end up hating me if I posted all the ones that I have.. ¬_¬

But fine! I'll do it.. Yay!

Here.

Edit: Did I get all of them or did I miss some?

Edited November 7, 2010 by Wodschow

[MrNybbles]

Edit: Did I get all of them or did I miss some?

Just for completeness the Performer has a spell called Expensive Gift which may only target models with Use Soulstone. Shadowy Form can only re-target a Nightmare with Use Soulstone within 3". Paired with Pandora's Emotional Trauma you can inflict wounds when Expensive Gift's Wp duel is lost. Doppelganger would also be very useful for this.

However, I don't know if Expensive Gift can be used when your opponent has zero Soulstones. I do know if your opponent burns their last Soulstone in the resist duel you don't get a Soulstone because your opponent must also discard one.

I know this sounds really bizarre but Pandora can recruit the Performer and Mannequin as Mercenaries so it will work.

A Ghost in Malifaux does not protect against Emotional Trauma either.

EDIT:

Link may only target a model in base contact. The Sorrows can inflict Wd this way when they avtivate, but link probably breaks when LCB is summoned. I guess you gotta wait until The Dreamer ends his activation, Link to him, and next turn get the initiative and activate the Sorrow. Probably not the best strategy in the world, but the theory seems to work.

Edited November 7, 2010 by MrNybbles

[karn987]

I generally refrain from asking too many questions in the Rules Section because I think they'd end up hating me if I posted all the ones that I have.. ¬_¬

But fine! I'll do it.. Yay!

Here.

Edit: Did I get all of them or did I miss some?

Thanks for posting it Wodschow! Now we just need to wait for a Marshal... did you prepare Sketches summoning alter? ;D

[Monkey]

Thanks for posting it Wodschow! Now we just need to wait for a Marshal... did you prepare Sketches summoning alter? ;D

Its not quite ready yet needs to get some cookies

[Odin1981]

Wouldn't Perdita's See the Unseen rule make her able to ignore that rule? Or am I mixed up with it or something?

[Danyeru]

so why not just use the Hanged's noose ability to pull the nightmares away, and nom him while he's in the open?

Think simpler.

[Wodschow]

Wouldn't Perdita's See the Unseen rule make her able to ignore that rule? Or am I mixed up with it or something?

It wouldn't. Only ignores duels and increasements in Df/Rg, Shadowy Form does neither.

so why not just use the Hanged's noose ability to pull the nightmares away, and nom him while he's in the open?

Think simpler.

Because that's not what this thread is about.

Once the final question in the Rules Section has been clarified I'll probably update the OP, but too lazy to do it untill then.

[Wodschow]

Based on a discussion in another thread I decided to make a compilation of ways to get to the Dreamer, even when he's surrounded by his Nightmares.

Skimmed through the books again and found the following abilities, triggers and actions that have the potential to circumvent the restrictions on targetting the Dreamer (not Colette specific). Note that some require a ridicolous amount conditions to be met to be usable at all, I included them anyway, here goes:

Perditas Quick Draw

Sonnias Inferno

Franciscos Fannin' Trigger (circumstancial)

Samaels Ricochet Trigger

Crooked Mens Shafted Markers (very circumstancial)

Electrical Creations Shocking Touch

Molemens Blindsight

Liliths Whirling Death

Leveticus' Entropic Transformation

Viktorias Whirlwind Trigger

Bayou Gremlins Y'all Watch This

Automatic Fire (Mechanical Attendant, Guild Guard Captain and Ryle)

Gakis Absorb and Devour Anything

Kaeris' Turn it Up Trigger (Practically impossible given her range)

Soulstone Miners Extract Soul

Alps' passive abilities

Lelus Thoughts Twisted

I underlined the ones I consider most potent.

There's a few more possibilities I thought of, not at all that viable though but yea :

Pandora could Incite/Pacify him if he's the last enemy in range that's unaffected by it.

He's not immune to terrifying so using this in combination with Smell Fear, Wicked or Emotional Trauma/Stress could theoretically work, although it's a bit naïve to believe he'll fail the test with his Wp8.. Even if Pandora could get Pity of on a nearby Nightmare and catch him in the blast he'll most likely pass.

Shikome can only target their Prey and the Prey selection isn't an action when used before the game starts, unfortunately it'll stop working as soon as the Dreamer buries.. ...

Other than that if you are really good at eyemeasuring you can place your models so that the Dreamer's the only target within range I think (but this sort of conflicts with rules on premeasuring)..

If you for instance have a 1" melee range he basically have to be totally surrounded or you could find a spot to place yourself in to only be able to target him (problem with this of course being that keeping such a distance to the Dreamer mightn't be very healthy).

I consider this to be practically impossible with ranged weapons against a decent player.

Alternatively to this Obey and similar abilities on the Nightmares surrounding the Dreamer might be a better bet - but again very circumstancial.

Somewhat related to those are abilities that must target the closest model, those include:

Razorspines Serpent Strike

Teddys Out of Control

Stampeding Pigs

and to much lesser extent Killjoys Blood Price

Easy way is of course just to kill the Nightmares first But that's no fun..! eh?

So yeah..

Discussion?

Tell me I'm wrong somewhere, add something that I missed, or just ignore me, was simply bored and thought it interesting to make this compilation.

Updated the first post, and quoted the old one for no reason other than I would have bumped the thread anyway.

Nothing else to say here

I'm annoyed at the spelling mistake in the thread name ¬¬