Colette vs. The Dreamer

[Uncle]

I admit I'm a complete Malifaux newbie. To date, I've played three games: an 8-player game, 25 ss against Ophelia (wiped him out on T4 or so) and a 35 ss game against the Dreamer (lost 6-8).

That said, I can't help but TheoryFaux that the Dreamer is one of the worst matchups for Colette, and I'm looking for any and all advice for dealing with him as possible. I can easily gain 5 VPs for Power Ritual/Sabotage/Bodyguard, but I find myself having issues dealing with the maneuverability of the Dreamer/LCB and the rest of his crew.

I'm not overly concerned about taking out-of-"faction" models, but anything that helps would be appreciated.

[dakrulz55]

well give some specs and we can try to help by giving answers. cuz there are a few different ways to bring lcb so give us problematic models or scenerio's so's we's cans answers

[MrNybbles]

The highly-explosive-when-thrown-Prinny is right, details please!

I could give some blind advice and use three Mechanical Doves (casting Magician's Duel) and Coryphee Duet against LCB himself, but from looking at what schemes to take you probably already know that.

For Coppelius you might want to cast Disappearing Act and try to trigger Mannequin Replacement, otherwise he's an uphill battle. Have Coryphees Dance Togeather to raise their Wp above 4, Mechanical Doves are always going to be vulnerable to Unhinge unless they are within 4" of Colette, but Colette is vulnerable to Terrifying.

[Uncle]

well give some specs and we can try to help by giving answers. cuz there are a few different ways to bring lcb so give us problematic models or scenerio's so's we's cans answers

The issue was, I never got to attack LCB at all. Taking him out, assuming he's on the board, isn't tough. However, each turn would begin with the Dreamer playing Peter Pan and zooming 7-14" across the board, then unburying LCB and his friends another 6" closer to me. After that, LCB would usually trigger All Done and rebury himself, or one of the Daydreams would Companion and bury LCB.

Basically, it felt like no matter what I was able to do, at least one model a turn was going to be LCB food, you know?

[MrNybbles]

???

If you have enough activations left you might want to send one Showgirl (possibly the Coryphee Duet) towards The Dreamer, Swap with Colette who can reactivate if needed, and cast Discharge Soulstone which can one-hit-kill The Dreamer with moderate damage. Spells are not actions so Shadowy Form does not protect him for Discharge Soulstone. You will then probably be facing LCB and a bunch of Nightmares, but Colette could always swap out with a Mannequin if things look bad.

The Dreamer is quite killable with Spells.

There's gotta be more going on here.

[Wodschow]

Spells mightn't be actions as such, bust Casting them sure is..

[Uncle]

???

If you have enough activations left you might want to send one Showgirl (possibly the Coryphee Duet) towards The Dreamer, Swap with Colette who can reactivate if needed, and cast Discharge Soulstone which can one-hit-kill The Dreamer with moderate damage. Spells are not actions so Shadowy Form does not protect him for Discharge Soulstone. You will then probably be facing LCB and a bunch of Nightmares, but Colette could always swap out with a Mannequin if things look bad.

The problem there is that by the time Dreamer and Chompy have activated, either the Dreamer's in a building, behind walls, or what have you and there's quite a few beefy Nightmares to get through--the local guy tends to run 2 Teddies and then seasons to taste with Lelu and Lilitu or whatnot. Admittedly, it'd be rougher if he ran a bunch of Alps, but I'm having trouble dealing with an entire crew with a threat range of 20" regardless of line of sight.

Part of my problem, I know, is that I'm having difficulty using the Performers particularly well. However, with the Dreamer selecting Kidnap and Grudge, it's quite difficult to deny him the 4 VPs.

[MrNybbles]

@JPRoth1980: Yeah, that looks rough. In tournaments this is one reason you are usually allowed more than one crew. If you can't get Colette close enough you might be able to get a Mechanical Dove other there to one-hit-kill him if you can cheat the damage to at least moderate.

If you can get at least within 9" of him you can summon A Mechanical Dove within 6" of Colette and have it immediately use it's 1 AP (slow from summoning) to cast Magician's Duel which has a melee range of 3". Cheat up the attack flip, Soulstone it to add to the attack flip, and if it hits try to cheat up to moderate damage if you need to and are able to.

For the Teddies they are immune to the Performers Spells and Mesmerizing because it would be conducting a Wp defense duel and they have Immune to Influence. The good news is you can still use Wp for Poison Ring because the Teddies would defend using their Df stat and Immune to Influence only works when they defend with Wp. Irresistible duels still must be taken because the talent says it may not be ignored by any Talent.

Spells mightn't be actions as such, bust Casting them sure is..

If that were the case then Shadowy Form and A Ghost in Malifaux would make him 99 and 44/100 percent invincible. Siren Call would be needed to move nearby Nightmares then. . .

[Q'iq'el]

If that were the case then Shadowy Form and A Ghost in Malifaux would make him 99 and 44/100 percent invincible. Siren Call would be needed to move nearby Nightmares then. . .

That definitely *is* the case.

There are spells which do not target directly (AoE) and those usually bypass defensive mechanisms like this.

Then there are abilities that by definition bypass defensive mechanisms and abilities that remove them.

Out of the top of my head you can attack him with:

1. Any kind of multiple-blast attack (target it at the mini he is within 3" from and place the blast markers so that they hit the Dreamer)

2. Any kind of pulse or aura based damaging spell.

You can also try to use one of the spells that removes abilities or defensive abilities from opponent models (Zoraida's Hex), but of course you have to do it while the Dreamer is possible to target.

Then you can kill the model it is standing next to first, and then target the Dreamer.

And of course all sorts of models that can shatter on death will damage him too - just run in and attack the models protecting the Dreamer - if they hit back, they'll damage the boy.

[Wodschow]

Q'iq'el: You seem to forget that he's immune to blasts and pulses aswell

Nybbles: Yea well it's my strong belief that it is indeed the case.

Ways to take down the Dreamer:

- Guild have Automatic Fire.

- Lelu's Thoughts Twisted.

- Some more that I haven't thought about.

The available options are rather few, most will have to target the Nightmares surrounding him first.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Wodschow
oops, suggested Devour, but that's 'Living' only..

[Q'iq'el]

Q'iq'el: You seem to forget that he's immune to blasts and pulses aswell

Nybbles: Yea well it's my strong belief that it is indeed the case.

Ways to take down the Dreamer:

- Guild have Automatic Fire.

- Lelu's Thoughts Twisted.

- Some more that I haven't thought about.

The available options are rather few, most will have to target the Nightmares surrounding him first.

Hmm, I haven't fought against him yet so I'm a bit behind on the details.

However things like Thoughts Twisted may still be problematic - you still have to target him to make it work.

Clearly you need to kill or otherwise remove (bury, push away etc) all the models within 3" from him before you can even attempt doing bad things to the boy. He's only 3Wd and Df2 IIRC, so it isn't surprising at all this mechanism is nearly impregnable.

Otherwise he'd die 1st turn of every game.

In other words, apply right tools and get rid of his bodyguards.

[dakrulz55]

well seeings that you have a prob with his one movement mechanic take it away. when he has his army burried out activate him, pref using colette either to soulstone farm or to draw cards. then use your movement shenanigans of the corphee and cassandra and kill the dreamer with breath of fire or blinding. then when he's walkin across the board you can easilly out meneuver him then and pester him with mech doves until lcb goes down. remember movements your crews bigest asset and once the dreamer is dead you easly can start picking apart his crew esp if hes investing in expensive models like teddy.

[Uncle]

well seeings that you have a prob with his one movement mechanic take it away. when he has his army burried out activate him, pref using colette either to soulstone farm or to draw cards. then use your movement shenanigans of the corphee and cassandra and kill the dreamer with breath of fire or blinding. then when he's walkin across the board you can easilly out meneuver him then and pester him with mech doves until lcb goes down. remember movements your crews bigest asset and once the dreamer is dead you easly can start picking apart his crew esp if hes investing in expensive models like teddy.

Actually, I think my opponent was misplaying the Dreamer, which may have lead to my struggles. He was activating him, using I Can Fly, then moving 14" (two AP) and summoning all his Nightmares within 6" (which would require a third AP that I don't think the Dreamer can use, can he?).

If he's able to use all three AP, then yeah, I'm not seeing how you can outmaneuver the Dreamer at all, seeing as how his entire crew can move 20" down the board on T1. And then 20" each turn as well.

[Ratty]

Actually, I think my opponent was misplaying the Dreamer, which may have lead to my struggles. He was activating him, using I Can Fly, then moving 14" (two AP) and summoning all his Nightmares within 6" (which would require a third AP that I don't think the Dreamer can use, can he?).

If he's able to use all three AP, then yeah, I'm not seeing how you can outmaneuver the Dreamer at all, seeing as how his entire crew can move 20" down the board on T1. And then 20" each turn as well.

That's right the Dreamer doesn't have fast so can't use all 3 AP himself. To get use of all 3 you have to use both forms.

[MrNybbles]

Okay, going against The Dreamer and his Teddies is going to be difficult. I think this is the 35ss list you went up against.

[The Dreamer List]

* The Dreamer (Cache: 0)

* Lord Chompy Bits

2 Daydream

9 Teddy

9 Teddy

7 Lelu

7 Lilitu

Cache 1

This Colette list is to demonstrate what you might want to tray and do. Customize it to fit your needs.

[Colette List]

* Colette (Living, Cache: 3)

6 Performer (Living) & Mannequin (Construct)

6 Performer (Living) & Mannequin (Construct)

9 Joss (Construct)

7 Coryphee (Construct)

7 Coryphee (Construct)

Starting Soulstone Cache: 3

Remember, if you know you are going to be attacked you can always use Defensive Stance as your first action.

Have the Coryphees Dance Together and use Coryphee Duet which can heal itself. When you activate it make sure to give it Use Soulstone so it can do a Damage Reduction Flip if it starts getting hammered.

Joss and the Coryphee Duet are constructs and ignore Terrifying on Teddy. They will have trouble killing a Teddy (even with both using Paired weapons), but can tie it up.

The Mannequins can also tie up enemies. Remember, any Showgirl within 2" of any Mannequin (including the Mannequin itself) can spend 1 AP to heal ANY Mannequin on the table 1 Wd.

The Performers are there to use Siren Call on any non-Teddy Nightmare within 3" of The Dreamer to get them out of the way. If only Teddy is within 3" of The Dreamer then you can target The Dreamer because Teddy's Immune to Influence makes him immune to Siren Call. (I'm assuming that if something is Immune to a spell then they are not a valid target for the spell to begin with). If The Dreamer was flying around then he will move 7" toward you. Remember, 'I Can Fly!' ends at the end of the turn.

Once The Dreamer is at least 3" away from any Nightmare Colette can cast 'Magician's Duel', and maybe Summon a Mechanical Dove to cast 'Magician's Duel' if he successfully defends against it.

Otherwise Colette can use Disappearing Act and try to get the Mannequin Replacement trigger off on the big threats. You have about a 50% chance to get the trigger.

Well, that's the best I can come up with for now. If I messed up somewhere I'm sure Wodschow will point it out.

[Wodschow]

Well, that's the best I can come up with for now. If I messed up somewhere I'm sure Wodschow will point it out.

xD you make me sound like I'm some sort inspector patrolling the forums.. D:

You make an interesting point about the Teddy being Immune to Influence, I don't know the answer, but my gut feeling is that your trick won't work. Anyway I added the question to the thread I started in the Rules Section about targetting the Dreamer, so hopefully it'll get sorted out soon.

...

As for actual advice I think it requires some experience to be able to tell when to do what (and I don't even main Colette myself, so I doubt I can be of much help).

Colettes crew generally have to be close to the enemy to do damage, most of the time however being close to the Dreamers crew isn't exactly healthy for you.

But yeah well.. As you [JPRoth] yourself said it should help a great deal if your opponent plays the Dreamer correctly next time (2 general AP at the most for the Dreamer) You should have the edge on movement against him.

[TimeLapse]

Just a random thought to get the dreamer out of range of his nightmares, use Taelor and her hammerstrike ablity. first move her in such a way that she will push nightmares away from the dreamer with here hammerstike ablity, and then push if you can, it may not work but if it does then you have one killable dreamer. just a random idea and taelor is a merc so she could fit into your list.

On the same note snow storm as an arua effect that moves models if the dreamer is uneffected by it you could move nightmare away from him, but if i remeber right the dreamer can choose to be effected by aruas so then you just place an ice piller in his way and push all the other models so that it keeps the dreamer away from other nightmares.

Just two kinda silly ideas that might work. if you can move the dreamer try moveing the world around him.

[Sholto]

Could you bombard the Nightmares within 3" of the Dreamer with Disappearing Act (Colette, 3 Mechanical Doves and Cassandra can all cast it, and can all use Soulstones to boost it), and then whatever you have left can target the Dreamer?

Given the number of Soulstones it would cost, it would be an all or nothing tactic, but would be epic if you managed to pull it off.

[Conviviacr]

Could you bombard the Nightmares within 3" of the Dreamer with Disappearing Act (Colette, 3 Mechanical Doves and Cassandra can all cast it, and can all use Soulstones to boost it), and then whatever you have left can target the Dreamer?

Given the number of Soulstones it would cost, it would be an all or nothing tactic, but would be epic if you managed to pull it off.

Only problem is that the dreamer, and anyone else in his crew that can unbury nightmares, can unbury anything that you have buried.

[Ratty]

Only problem is that the dreamer, and anyone else in his crew that can unbury nightmares, can unbury anything that you have buried.

Nope they can't the Errata says they are burried until the effect that burried them says it ends.

[DaLoon]

Actually, I think my opponent was misplaying the Dreamer, which may have lead to my struggles. He was activating him, using I Can Fly, then moving 14" (two AP) and summoning all his Nightmares within 6" (which would require a third AP that I don't think the Dreamer can use, can he?).

If he's able to use all three AP, then yeah, I'm not seeing how you can outmaneuver the Dreamer at all, seeing as how his entire crew can move 20" down the board on T1. And then 20" each turn as well.

Yeah... It'd help if I wasn't cheating you,bro. Sorry about that :surprised

I knew I musta been doing something wrong. The Dreamer sure felt nasty lol

Rematch with me not playing like an idiot?

-Daniel

[Uncle]

Yeah... It'd help if I wasn't cheating you,bro. Sorry about that :surprised

I knew I musta been doing something wrong. The Dreamer sure felt nasty lol

Rematch with me not playing like an idiot?

-Daniel

It's only cheating if it's intentional, so no worries. Besides, that was like my third or fourth game, so I don't think I got everything right, either.

As far as the rematch, gladly.

[Wodschow]

Nope they can't the Errata says they are burried until the effect that burried them says it ends.

It was ruled otherwise when it was brought up some time ago.

You can find Sketch's post here. (Protip, don't read the rest of the thread there's nothing in it xD)

[Natty]

Nope they can't the Errata says they are burried until the effect that burried them says it ends.

What? Where? Did I miss the new Errata or something?

And considering that the Dreamer's burying effects don't have an end time, it must be worded differently than that because then you could never unbury your models.

[Natty]

It was ruled otherwise when it was brought up some time ago.

You can find Sketch's post here. (Protip, don't read the rest of the thread there's nothing in it xD)

Yeah. Maybe Ratty was just misreading the old errata on buried models. He scared me! Made me think there was a new errata.

Not being able to unbury models that got hit with Pine Box would be silly considering that The Dreamer does exactly that in the story arc.