New Errata

[Omenbringer]

The Free rules PDF will be great for new players as well because it will provide a very low cost of entry for Malifaux (Sort of like the early days of Warmachine).

[Sandwich]

I really wish they had a blog sort of deal for the updates so that we could at least know why it has been taking so long.

I'm all for waiting, but I'd at least like to know what I'm waiting for.

[Justin]

I really wish they had a blog sort of deal for the updates so that we could at least know why it has been taking so long.

I'm all for waiting, but I'd at least like to know what I'm waiting for.

I could see that causing problems.

Without posting specifics about the rules and discussions about them, I don't know what could be in such a blog.

And if potential rules discussions were blogged about, the boards would be in an uproar over rules that may never come to pass.

I'm cool with waiting.

Getting really into my dark eldar in the mean time.

[nerdelemental]

I really wish they had a blog sort of deal for the updates so that we could at least know why it has been taking so long.

I'm all for waiting, but I'd at least like to know what I'm waiting for.

Compiling data.

discussing/debating any proposed changes among the Dev team.

rewriting anything that needs rewriting.

editing.

Compiling more data.

Testing any changes.

Hiring artists.

Layout of a book.

Proofing a book.

editing and proofing again.

Finding language that isn't as water tight as we had thought (after seeing the same sentence 50 times).

rewriting anything that needs rewriting.

re-editing and/or re-proofing.

Sending it to the printer.

Having it shipped across the world.

Sending it to distributors.

Sending it to LGS.

...no one thought the magic book fairy just waved a wand and "poof" a book showed up, right?

edit: Oh, and why are you waiting? What are you waiting for, exactly? Call up a bud and play, man!

[nilus]

...no one thought the magic book fairy just waved a wand and "poof" a book showed up, right?

Yeah. I figured it was the same kinda thing that happens when people have babies. Next thing your gonna say is the Stork is a lie.

[nilus]

Many fans seem happy with it, and I'm sure the new art will be amazing as always. But it seems they just want us to pay them to make up for their mistakes. After having purchased Rising Powers its unfortunate that they want me to buy another book to get a copy of the rules that aren't filled with design or editing errors.

You did catch the free PDF part right.

[Justin]

Compiling data.

discussing/debating any proposed changes among the Dev team.

rewriting anything that needs rewriting.

editing.

Compiling more data.

Testing any changes.

Hiring artists.

Layout of a book.

Proofing a book.

editing and proofing again.

Finding language that isn't as water tight as we had thought (after seeing the same sentence 50 times).

rewriting anything that needs rewriting.

re-editing and/or re-proofing.

Sending it to the printer.

Having it shipped across the world.

Sending it to distributors.

Sending it to LGS.

...no one thought the magic book fairy just waved a wand and "poof" a book showed up, right?

edit: Oh, and why are you waiting? What are you waiting for, exactly? Call up a bud and play, man!

I think he was talking about the errata itself.

Not the next book.

Could be wrong, though.

[Zethal]

You did catch the free PDF part right.

Not only did I notice it I mentioned in the post you are replying to ...

It's frustrating that a lot of our delay in forum responses and general FAQ and errata have likely been delayed because they want to release this rule book. I've watched my group disentergrate because of the incredibly long time it has taken to release something that should of been much simplier than what they have made it.

Now I'm not saying that the book isn't a good idea considering how troublesome the initial book and errata are to sort through. But delaying the online PDF has destroyed my community, and maybe mine is the only one suffering from this but I doubt it. If it's not then they are losing money due to the neglect and delay not making money by releasing it as a book.

And maybe the free PDF will be wonderful, but the description given to us in the announcement forum sounds anything but promising. The veil of secrecy they insist on creating as well as the lack of communication are a large problem. Granted my experience is completely anecdotal I don't have sales numbers and maybe they are experiencing actual growth rather than just a bump in numbers with rising powers being released.

But anyway. My group is all but dead and this will probably kill it. None of us will purchase that book and most of us are very unlikely to ever purchase a wyrd miniature again.

[Q'iq'el]

I know that from Wyrd's perspective losing any customers is bad, and I don't want to sound too offensive either (some degree of offensiveness isn't bad at all ), but do you seriously believe that a group of players which falls apart because they cannot house-rule a couple of contentious rules for 3 or 4 months actually constitutes a "community"?

Or perhaps we should break with the silly internet tradition and actually give up on using them hyperboles?

[Zethal]

I know that from Wyrd's perspective losing any customers is bad, and I don't want to sound too offensive either (some degree of offensiveness isn't bad at all ), but do you seriously believe that a group of players which falls apart because they cannot house-rule a couple of contentious rules for 3 or 4 months actually constitutes a "community"?

Or perhaps we should break with the silly internet tradition and actually give up on using them hyperboles?

Not hyperbole at all. My play group was very excited about Rising Powers. That it was easily the largest thing to anticipate at Gen Con and to get what was printed was unfortunate. The now many months of lack of communication and seeming neglect to fix this problem, the poor attention to forum questions, the general poor way errata and the FAQ have been handled have left my group disinterested in supporting Wyrd. Then to find out that the promised PDF, that we have literally waited months for, is unlikely to even address the Rising Powers problems...

Of course we have house ruled problems and created all sorts of things to play, but then why would we want or need Wyrd? Why would I purchase their rule book for $15 dollars if I've improved their game myself to everyones satisfaction. And if you honestly think that there is no difference between an official ruling and the house rule, well then I'm glad your group feels that way. I've never been in a group that feels they are equal.

Now my group and I feel that what should of been a quick rally of the company to address really poor editing and rule writing (which was probably happened in the first place to rush the book out for gen con, regardless of quality of the product they were selling, or maybe something else but they aren't telling us what happened), has turned into a many month long process where Wyrd has found a way they think they will make a buck or two off of their own mistake. Maybe they will, but they certainly lost money in my area, people are spending their funds elsewhere for the holidays because they feel uncared for and neglected. They respect a lot of what Wyrd has created but the way they have handled it has made them apathetic what Wyrd has done well.

They won't be making the meer $15 dollars for the one book that would of been bought and shared at the store or passed around for the league, and instead the lost hundreds of dollars in sales over the last 6-8 weeks. As the older players stopped playing and purchasing and thus decreased the number of other players in the area picking it up or new players starting into Malifaux rather then substitutes.

They are a very new company in a market that has been notoriously hard to break into. Mistakes like these that aren't handled well have a large impact on a fragile player base.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Zethal

[Justin]

Not only did I notice it I mentioned in the post you are replying to ...

It's frustrating that a lot of our delay in forum responses and general FAQ and errata have likely been delayed because they want to release this rule book. I've watched my group disentergrate because of the incredibly long time it has taken to release something that should of been much simplier than what they have made it.

Now I'm not saying that the book isn't a good idea considering how troublesome the initial book and errata are to sort through. But delaying the online PDF has destroyed my community, and maybe mine is the only one suffering from this but I doubt it. If it's not then they are losing money due to the neglect and delay not making money by releasing it as a book.

And maybe the free PDF will be wonderful, but the description given to us in the announcement forum sounds anything but promising. The veil of secrecy they insist on creating as well as the lack of communication are a large problem. Granted my experience is completely anecdotal I don't have sales numbers and maybe they are experiencing actual growth rather than just a bump in numbers with rising powers being released.

But anyway. My group is all but dead and this will probably kill it. None of us will purchase that book and most of us are very unlikely to ever purchase a wyrd miniature again.

I agree that the delay with the errata is...bad.

Bad is basically the only way to put it.

I have no idea what wyrd's numbers are. I have no idea if the delay has hurt them. And, even if it has, it may not necessarily show. Their numbers may be continuously going up, but had they released errata earlier they would have gone up more.

Who knows. Who cares.

Bottom line, long delay in errata = bad.

I get it. I feel you. A number of people I know do not play due to the length of errata and having to sort through forum posts for rulings. A friend of mine straight up told me (around last March): "I'll play when they release a rulebook with all that shit printed in it." And now they have, and I linked it to him, and he said he'd start when it was released.

I don't see how the release of this book being anything but a good thing.

P.S. "Of" and "have" are two totally different words and they are not interchangeable.

[Q'iq'el]

Then to find out that the promised PDF, that we have literally waited months for, is unlikely to even address the Rising Powers problems...

I have just one thing to say to everything you complain about. Next time write Wyrd a letter. Seriously.

This is merely an internet forum where players show up to help each other. Wyrd representatives and nominated rules specialists help us solve the rules problems and post official ruling here, but it isn't really nothing more than a community platform for exchanging of opinions and if there is no official ruling to post yet, you will get none.

If you want to contact the company that made the product you've bought and you *need* the answers, Wyrd Miniatures has an address or PO Box and you can write them. I'm sure the US laws, just like most western countries, actually require them to answer such correspondence within 14 business days or so. Long? Perhaps. Nothing as stressful as the months of wait under the veil of secrecy you and your friends had to suffer through, though.

[Zethal]

I don't see how the release of this book being anything but a good thing.

Aye, looking back I was probably a bit frustrated in when I phrased my opinion of it. While I said it isn't a bad thing, my intention was to imply that it was a good thing.

I have just one thing to say to everything you complain about. Next time write Wyrd a letter. Seriously.

Shrug, this was an easy medium to communicate through. I expressed my displeasure, suggested various things to help improve the way the function and did so while watching my play group disappear due to frustration with the company. I feels like it all got ignored and that this promised FAQ and errata was a wonderful way to string us along to purchase content that should of been free a couple months back.

There probably won't be a next time. As I doubt I'll purchase anything else from Wyrd. But good luck to them, and I'm glad the rest of you are enjoying the game.

[Q'iq'el]

Shrug, this was an easy medium to communicate through. I expressed my displeasure, suggested various things to help improve the way the function and did so while watching my play group disappear due to frustration with the company. I feels like it all got ignored and that this promised FAQ and errata was a wonderful way to string us along to purchase content that should of been free a couple months back.

I find it very perplexing you've came to such a conclusion. An errata we were promised few months back was supposed to be just that - a free PDF with all the fixes.

Instead you get a free PDF with all the rules and errata edited in. That's pretty much A LOT of someone's work you get for free.

Ok, there's also a new product, a book with these rules, new art and extra contents & you can buy it if you want. But since you don't have to, you are not being strung.

The way I see it, they are late, but they are giving you something far better than the original promise and with an extra product release on top of that. How is that a ground for complaints?!

Edited December 13, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Ratty]

To be absolutely honest what they are giving us is just what I asked for. Having another Errata where you have to copy and paste stuff into the original book would still have been a nightmare. You would have still had to look in the Book, the Errata. Not to mention the difficulty finding stuff in the book in the middle of a game. The number of times something has come up and we haven't been able to find it at the time.

They are releasing a new PDF with everything in one place. Great. I'm willing to wait a month or so for that, we will just have to play friendly for a couple more weeks.

Not only that but it will have an index. Cool..

I will still be getting the new book, because it's cheap. Has everything in one place with no stories interspaced, has an index, is portable.

But the fact I can point a new player to the PDF is great.

I understand the wait is annoying in the short term, but I think if they had done anything less it would have put them in a bad way moving on.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Ratty

[Hookers]

To be absolutely honest what they are giving us is just what I asked for. Having another Errata where you have to copy and paste stuff into the original book would still have been a nightmare. You would have still had to look in the Book, the Errata. Not to mention the difficulty finding stuff in the book in the middle of a game. The number of times something has come up and we haven't been able to find it at the time.

They are releasing a new PDF with everything in one place. Great. I'm willing to wait a month or so for that, we will just have to play friendly for a couple more weeks.

Not only that but it will have an index. Cool..

I will still be getting the new book, because it's cheap. Has everything in one place with no stories interspaced, has an index, is portable.

But the fact I can point a new player to the PDF is great.

I understand the wait is annoying in the short term, but I think if they had done anything less it would have put them in a bad way moving on.

this exactly.

with tons of models which then have tons of abilities some of them are just going to have weird interactions. some abilities will be inconsistently defined even though they do the exact same thing as something else that is worded a different way. this stuff is inevitable and difficult to catch without releasing it to a wide audience. the wide audience in their general course of play comes across things that just never happened in playtesting for whatever reason.

the errata has been evolving for over a year, and rather than continually make players check for changes they decided to sit down and make sure everything was where it should be and finished. there was probably a time period in there where every day something new was found and questioned.

everything is being made consistent, loopholes being corrected, and even some balance changes made. the fact that they are willing to do this after the product has been released and while they are still turning a profit is awesome. not every company (cough GW) is willing to do that, with most putting out a cursory FAQ after new content is released that doesn't solve all the problems or sometimes even raises more questions than it answers.

I don't know where you got the understanding that the free PDF wouldn't be enough. Rules wise they are going to be identical. the book is offered for people who like the artwork and feel of everything, and would rather have that with them than just printed out sheets. and the book is only $15. compare that to any rulebook ever.

its unfortunate that the wait for the finished errata has put you off, but malifaux has been a very solid system despite this the entire time, and more importantly is a really fun game. if you can't make house rules to deal with the little stuff that comes up how does your "community" play any other games? few give the level of attention to this kind of issue that wyrd has. when have you ever had a question that couldn't be answered here on the forums?

[Nathan Caroland]

Quite bluntly, doing this is a lot more work than folks tend to give credit to, and while it might seem easy enough to say 'snap, its this way', then the next person comes along and says 'well, you put the comma in the wrong place, so if I look at it from that angle, it means that I get to do THIS'.

Writing, testing, editing and layout doesn't happen overnight.

As for the veil of secrecy, seriously, if I announce something today, and tomorrow it doesn't happen, we get tore up pretty much by the player base, thus whether its liked or not, I've taken the policy that its best to just smile, listen, understand, and work towards putting out a good product when its ready, not rushing to please everyone immediately, cause frankly, and honestly, mistakes happen and lessons learned.

Read through the forums some days. Gamers are incredibly great folks, we love the hell out of your passion, interest and just overall creative enthusiasm that runs flat out at the red line heavily in a lot of folks. Then there are the ones who go for the throat each and every time, the rabid penultimate gamer who has decided that they have been done wrong due to one thing or another and by golly, virtual blood and vitriol will be shed before the day is over!

How it is.

Some of you toss the word 'ominous' about as well, about how we're being so creepy quiet about the PDF, etc. Quite bluntly, the Rules Handbook is there to get all the rules in one place, errata'ed, faq'ed, indexed, and folks have been asking after this for a bit, we have listened, not just another 'ooh, lets bend them over the barrel and make money'. The PDF is our way of getting this information out there as well, releasing the CORE rules by the PDF (so for anyone reading between the lines there, that means the content from the Rising Powers book won't be available in the PDF unless something has been tweaked to affect the whole of the rules system), and of course, to keep in mind for people that wish to print it and the like, to strip out some of the larger pieces of artwork, etc so that it isn't a bear to print.

Ominous and dark. Welcome to my parlor, don't mind the screaming and stains ..

:itsme:

[LoboStele]

Seriously guys, this is not 'taking them a long time.' I have also played Star Wars Miniatures over the years, and there's only one piece that ended up needing serious errata. At first the card made the piece look broken, but then rules glossary sort of clarified it and made the piece pretty well cuddled. Then, like 4 months later, the game designer finally realized and said "Oh man, the glossary was wrong, the card is right", and all of the sudden, we had this uber-broken piece again. It took another 4 months or so to get things sorted out, and in the end, the document for Tournament Rules ended up having to put in a special clause to errata the piece for tournaments only to a point somewhere between the two extremes. For 'casual' play, the piece is still broken as all get out unless the players have a 'gentleman's agreement' to play with the slightly watered down version of the piece.

So, it took over 8 months to get ONE PIECE taken care of. And heck, it was only one ability on that one piece which was causing problems. We're talking about multiple pieces on top of basic rules which need tweaking and things like that. This is a LOT of work to do be done, and a lot of stuff to double-check.

I 100% agree with Wyrd's direction and approach with this project. We're going to get a free document which can be used, so they are giving us exactly what we asked for in that regard.

And I'm sorry, but if your game group is so cutthroat that they can't work through the few issues with the rules of this game, then you've missed the point of Malifaux entirely, IMO.

[Zethal]

Quite bluntly, doing this is a lot more work than folks tend to give credit to, and while it might seem easy enough to say 'snap, its this way', then the next person comes along and says 'well, you put the comma in the wrong place, so if I look at it from that angle, it means that I get to do THIS'.

Quite bluntly thats called editing, and it is a expected process of creating printed material. No one has requested instant perfection, just timely progress.

As for the veil of secrecy, seriously, if I announce something today, and tomorrow it doesn't happen, we get tore up pretty much by the player base

With all due respect that its entirely unfair sir, unless this is happening in areas of the forum I don't frequent, but it certainly not happening here or the rules section.

No one expects it to happen tomorrow, we do expect it to happen within a few months or at least told what is going on. We've been waiting for something and told it is coming, it's going to be great and we will hear about it soon.

I know that my group at the very least would of been much more willing to continue purchasing models and playing if we had been told, "We are working on creating a pocket size rule book that is updated with all the errata and and FAQ info, as we feel this would be of great use to our players."

You could even tease some of the art. Instead we heard nothing besides "soon" and due to that my group lost interest.

Then there are the ones who go for the throat each and every time, the rabid penultimate gamer who has decided that they have been done wrong due to one thing or another and by golly, virtual blood and vitriol will be shed before the day is over!

I sorry if you feel that is how I've treated you. I feel I've given you good praise on the areas you have done very well; your vision, models, balance and unique content. While I've certainly written more about the parts that I'm finding troublesome I've done it to to try and be clear about the problem I've having and give constructive feedback. Additionally because it is the one area of the game that is of great importance to, at the very least, my area. Resulting on a growing distaste for Malifaux; once that started happening I started came here and tried to get my concerns heard.

Quite bluntly, the Rules Handbook is there to get all the rules in one place, errata'ed, faq'ed, indexed, and folks have been asking after this for a bit, we have listened, not just another 'ooh, lets bend them over the barrel and make money'.

I'm not suggesting the rulebook is a bad idea at all, in fact I've agreed it is a good one. I much preferred the little rulebook that came in some supplemental product for WHFB 7th Ed. That has not been is is not my criticism.

The PDF is our way of getting this information out there as well, releasing the CORE rules by the PDF (so for anyone reading between the lines there, that means the content from the Rising Powers book won't be available in the PDF unless something has been tweaked to affect the whole of the rules system), and of course, to keep in mind for people that wish to print it and the like, to strip out some of the larger pieces of artwork, etc so that it isn't a bear to print.

This is my criticism.

Why is the PDF not including Rising Powers? Will it include the FAQ and Errata for Rising Powers? If not, do I need to purchase the Rules Marshall book to learn about those proposed changes?

How long has the errata and FAQ been done? How long ago could you have released that information while you continued to work on layout, art and printing of the book? If the errata is just being finished a couple days before print, why was the focus on the layout, art and getting the new book published rather than creating a easy document for us to reference to play your game? Unless players are closely following this forum they are probably completely unaware of many of the editing mistakes within Rising Powers. I had to mention to my group that The Stolen are not supposed to be unique and then I had to find the thread to prove that was the intention. Why is that information not readily apparent for new players coming to the forum? Why are you expecting me to purchase a book that contains the updated rules, when I've already purchased the first two and this is largely you fixing the mistakes made in the first two? What does 'core rules' mean exactly, besides the LoS, Size, Elevation, Shooting into Combat and other aspect of basic functionality does it also include all of the errata that has been added to the models in the first book? Or do I need to purchase your book to get all of that nicely in one place?

[DeleteAccount]

Frankly, if the free pdf doesn't include any of the changes made to models from both books then I frankly could care less. My rules problems are with the multiple special rules interactions and the wonky balancing of a lot of abilities which leaves me baffled. The core rules seem decent enough at the moment, it's when you dig in when the confusion piles up.

Also, I will still have the exact same problem of having no idea what the official rules of a model currently are through the pdf since there are models with v2 and even v3 cards flying around all over the place.

I know I can play "with what I have written" like was suggested before, but I HATE not playing a game as it is intended, so it is not something I like and I specially don't like that I have no clear answer to a rules question except to shrug.

I can get completely behind releasing a separate compact book with all the info, but not having access to all the errata and changes made to the models of 2 books I already bought on a pdf format does not sit well with me, specially since I shouldn't have to pay for shoddy text proofing or rules balancing and writing.

This may sound harsh and I do understand it is your first game, but to me that isn't an excuse to have a bad errata and an errata of the errata and no other official and collected form to access rules changes and faqs, specially when it seems the information itself has been withheld to prepare this new book.

[Ratty]

I believe they have already said they were going to release a pdf of all the v2 cards.

[karn987]

This thread is out of control again and I just wish people would calm down and just go with the flow on this. Wyrd has never done us wrong and they wont do us wrong now. They are working very hard and I for one greatly appreciate all their hard work. I may not agree with everything they do, Im no yes-man robot after-all, but they don't ask that of us.

Im starting to think this thread has just become a troll magnet (I know, its a swear word but this has many symptoms of this). Zethal man... what are you getting at? I just don't understand any more, you seem to just be arguing because you can at this point.

Like I said... 8 pages ago, it will be what it will be. We will see what comes of it, but we have every reason to trust in Wyrd. Destructive, inflammatory, insulting, and argumentative posts and comments do not help anyone. Please guys and gals, just step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. You shouldn't drink and drive and you shouldn't post angry.

Edited December 13, 2010 by karn987

[Nathan Caroland]

... and 'nuff said, as folks are just going to go round and round.