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Unreleased Models


wdowney

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Why do I keep seeing a resistance to people using unreleased models? I even saw somewhere where they allowed you to use unrealesed models, but only 10 souls stones worth.

I can understand not wanting to use an empty base with a lego block on it, and I understand Wyrd not wanting people to use minis from other companies, but if someone converts up an existing Wyrd model to be an unreleased model, and you can easily tell what it is - why would that not be allowed in tournament play?

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Because not everyone has access to the conversion skills necessary to field unreleased models. If the model has not been released then it is more difficult for people to filed it, in theory giving an advantage to the people that have created a conversion/alternate model for the unreleased model.

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Honestly, I don't know either. At our LGS, the rule is basically that it's cool to use a Proxy model, as long as the real model hasn't been released yet. Even then, we'll usually let people run with a Proxy model a couple times so they can figure out if it's a piece they want to spend the money on buying or not.

But a friend posted a very similar thread just last week on this same subject. Everybody has different opinions about how to approach this subject. I've not played any GW games, but from what I hear, they have a pretty strict no-Proxy rule, so I guess that's where some people learned that behavior.

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I would think the reason is that "official" events should only use models made by the company whose event it is. This is standard practice across all mini games.

For more casual events that I've run, proxies should be fine as long as the model is painted and based and is a reasonable approximation of what it is representing. And you have to have a "card" or at least a photocopy of the models stats to indicate damage and quickly show your opponent.

Nothing slows down a game more than having to look up each models stats every time a question comes up. And requiring them to be painted prevents the proxy silver army of doom, where nothing is what it seems.

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Because not everyone has access to the conversion skills necessary to field unreleased models. If the model has not been released then it is more difficult for people to filed it, in theory giving an advantage to the people that have created a conversion/alternate model for the unreleased model.

Giving an advantage? That's a load of crock. With some of the new pieces in Book 2, you are at a DISADVANTAGE if you don't proxy the piece. Take Kirai's Lost Love totem for instance. It's not coming out till at least February. But a Kirai crew is at a severe disadvantage until that model comes out. Compare that to a Colette crew, who has basically all of her models released (granted, not doves, but Colette can be brutal without them anyways). Or compare it to a full crew from Book 1 that has all it's models released.

Frankly, I think that if someone takes the time and energy (which is often substantial), plus the extra money, to track down something to make a decent conversion, then they deserve to have whatever advantage the piece offers them. And honestly, conversion is NOT that difficult, especially when compared to what goes into assembling some of the official Malifaux pieces anyways, lol.

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Interesting.

I can see both sides to it.

I own a small hobby shop and am going to be running my first event next month and I am going to allow unreleased models. They will have to be converted to where you can tell what they are. I see no problem with that.

I do not like the silver army of doom where you can't tell what anything is. I also do not like counts-as armies (coming from Warhammer 40k.) I was at a tournament and a guy had some lizardmen Stegadons, some Eldar riding Cold Ones (lizard mounts) and a bunch of other random crap. I was like - 'oh neat, exodite Eldar" (these are Eldar - who are basically space elves - who live with nature and have animals and lizards and stuff) - and the guy was like "no, these are Tyranids" (giant space bugs.) I was floored, I couldn't tell what anything was supposed to be - stuff like that pisses me off.

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Interesting.

I do not like the silver army of doom where you can't tell what anything is. I also do not like counts-as armies (coming from Warhammer 40k.) I was at a tournament and a guy had some lizardmen Stegadons, some Eldar riding Cold Ones (lizard mounts) and a bunch of other random crap. I was like - 'oh neat, exodite Eldar" (these are Eldar - who are basically space elves - who live with nature and have animals and lizards and stuff) - and the guy was like "no, these are Tyranids" (giant space bugs.) I was floored, I couldn't tell what anything was supposed to be - stuff like that pisses me off.

Yeap nothing ruins a fun event quicker than the guy that brings his random box of this counts as...

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Yeah, that's one of the cool things about my group. We're allowing a lot of proxy stuff lately (like for instance, Nightmares for Lord Chompy Bits...at least until next month). So, in some of those games, it really does end up being a whole crew of "counts as" type stuff. However, our guys are doing really awesome to go out and find wholly new models and at the very least re-base them, if not convert/repaint/etc. as well. Has made it pretty easy to keep track of what's what overall.

Basically, as long as it's obvious what is what, then nobody has a problem with it.

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To me a lot of it depends on local player base and size of tournament.

For my local tourneys I allow proxies for unreleased models as long as they accurately represent the model. I don't encourage their use but neither do I discourage. I prefer if people only proxy a model or two though and not a whole crew as that gets very confusing to the other players.

In a large tourney(like what I am running at Adepticon). I am going to not allow them because with over 20 players it gets hard to keep track of what people are doing.

Edit: And of course in open play proxies are used all the time. As long as your opponent knows what that model is then no one generally complains. Just ask about my Sonnia "Abuela Ortega" Crid

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I come from the Epic community, in it's wonderful genius it has rules for proxying in the main rulebook. luckily the Epic rulebook is now a living rulebook and it is fine to quote stats. (It has to be as the game is now being maintained by a non-GW group.)

You may if you wish decide that certain units in your army ‘count as’ something else from the army lists that is of roughly the same size and function. This is especially useful if you are using old models that are no longer in the range and therefore not covered in the army lists, or you are using models that are painted differently. For example, you might have managed to lay your hands on some of the old metal Ork Squigoth models that we made many years ago but that are now no longer in the range. Rather than leaving these models languishing on the shelf you could simply decide that they ‘count as’ Ork Battlewagons, which are roughly the same size as a Squigoth and have a similar function.

Alternatively, you may have decided to use the Steel Legion army list to represent a different Imperial Guard regiment with a very different colour scheme. Again, it would be a great shame not to be able to use your gorgeously painted army, and the ‘counts as’ rule will allow you to do so. However, if you decide to use the ‘counts as’ rule, then there are three very important things to bear in mind:

• First of all, before the game starts you must tell your opponent that you have decided to use the ‘counts as’ rule, and you must let him know what counts as what.

• Secondly, this rule is here to allow you to use all the models in your collection, not as a method of fine-tuning your army for every game that you play. Therefore you may not use the ‘counts as’ rule for units that are actually covered in the army lists. For example, if you have a model of a Land Speeder, then you must use it as a Land Speeder and pay the points for a Land Speeder; you could not use it as a Land Speeder Tornado, or a Predator, or any other unit for that matter. By the same token, a Land Speeder Tornado must be used as a Land Speeder Tornado and can’t stand in for any other units. This rule is included to prevent confusion and keep game play as even and balanced as possible. Note that you can paint the unit in any way you like, you just can’t count it as a different unit from the list.

• Finally, if you decide that any unit in your army ‘counts as’ something else, then all of that type of unit in your army must count as the same thing. For example, if you decided that your old Squigoth model was a Battlewagon, then all the Squigoths in your army would have to be Battlewagons – you couldn’t have one Squigoth as a Battlewagon, one as a Gunwagon, and so on.

I really like how these work it stops a lot of the issues with proxies. The last 2 tournaments I went to I went with severely proxied armies, 1 of which was an official GW tournament where I won best army. Here are my army lists

Epic IG army.

Page 1

Page 2

Page 3

Page 4

Page 5

Epic Chaos Army

Page 1

Page 2

Page 3

Page 4

As you can see I'm very pro proxy. I have seen some wonderful proxy Epic armies, last event I faced a count as Space Marine army that was a Inquisitorial army with the Supreme Commander as an Inquisitor with retinue, Scouts as converted Sisters of Battle, Terminators as Grey Knight Terminators, Basic Marines as Death Watch and Devastators as Grey Knight Marines. It looked amazing and as they all made sense as what they were I had no issues when playing it.

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I am not allowing proxies in my tournaments for a while, I don't want people having entirely proxied crews of freikorps, nightmares, hamelin, etc.

It's hard enough keeping track of malifaux for casual players without them aslo having to struggle through the opponent not having a card they can reference or a model they can easily recognise.

I did allow proxies prior to Rising Powers as long as they were suitably converted to represent the model in question.

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i liked Neveratas' method; out of the 40ss, you're only allowed 10SS of Proxy stuff and they have to be declared a couple of weeks before the main list is submitted.

for Friendly games, i have no problems with Random minis as proxies; it's a great method of testing out rules but the opponent should be told what it represents and the proxy should stand out so not to get confused with any other minis!

For tournaments, so long as they're suitably converted, i haven't got any problems with proxies; you should be able to see what they represent even if it's as simple as, say, sticking a couple of buckets in a gremlins' hands.

Naturally, it does need to be declared to the opponent and ok'ed by the Tournament Organiser!

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I am typically anti-unreleased models, my only hesitation is with crews who summon said models.

Colette's doves, LCB's Daydreams etc.

For colette two of her spells are utterly useless (as well as some of her best strategies) without them.

For LCB I think its just one spell, still, your playing with a handicap on the model.

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  • 4 months later...

when I think proxy, I usually think of people using pennies in place of a model or something, wich is kind of lame, since part of the appeal of mini's to me is visual.

converted mini's i don't see a problem with, I'm already planning on converting my Mcmourning box once it comes in, since I tend to not want my crew to look identacle to other crews.

my 40k armies are pretty heavily converted too, but as long as you can tell what it is, I don't see a problem

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Here is my take on the proxy situation. I used to work for GW years back and the rule of thumb at the GT's were that as long as the model used I think the percentage was like 80% GW models/bits, it was allowed. Especially for figs that had rules but no models released.

My personal feelings on it is that if the model has not been released yet, then I believe proxies should be allowed. The rules are already released and out there for all, I don't feel that I, the player, should be penalized because the model I wish to play isn't high up on Wyrd's figure release list. I do believe though, that in a Wyrd tournament setting, the proxy should have mostly (if not all) Wyrd bits and pieces. They also MUST look like the figure they are representing (I'm shocked about the previous posted story of the eldar nids!).

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