poulpox Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Hello there! I had some thoughts on how, especially in book 2, the Guild is depicted: vicious and merciless, rather on the dark side of life (particularly the Lucius/Governor team), and was wondering if you guys hoped like me some masters will show some "fluff balancing" in the coming books: do you like me feel that Lady J seems like the right one to correct the crooked path of the Governor's team? ----restore natural order------restore Justice------ Any thoughts on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 To me personally, I think if anyone were to play the good guy, it'd be Perdita. Lady J seems zealous and Sonia seems powerhungry. I think Perdita just wants to kill Neverborn, and of the three, I believe that is the most noble cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvatarForm Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I always thought the Guild were the bad guys with a 'front'... To put from the 'natives' point of view anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvatarForm Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 To me personally, I think if anyone were to play the good guy, it'd be Perdita. Lady J seems zealous and Sonia seems powerhungry. I think Perdita just wants to kill Neverborn, and of the three, I believe that is the most noble cause. Noble? Think of the movie Avatar (*spits*), the Neverborn are the blue guys... the Guild are the Corporation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I agree with AvatarForm - the Guild are the Man, although the Neverborn aren't really the blue dudes in Avatar. Although they are the ones being invaded, we have it on decent authority (the rules, for one) that they are truly brutal, sadistic and cruel I don't think there are any out and out good guys in Malifaux, just people trying to get by, and lots of shades of grey to keep things interesting. Even the supposedly good guys (eg. Perdita) are arguably just doing what they are good at, rather than on any mission to Do the Right Thing. Lady J has yet to show anything other her authoritarian jackboot side, and Sonnia is off on a jolly of her own these days. Ramos as the People's Champion? Discuss There are plenty of out and out bad guys, though - it is hard to see the redeeming sides of Seamus or Lord Chompy Bits or new Hamelin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I wasn't specifically saying that they were good, but of the three evils, Perdita is the most noble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvatarForm Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I agree with AvatarForm - the Guild are the Man, although the Neverborn aren't really the blue dudes in Avatar. Although they are the ones being invaded, we have it on decent authority (the rules, for one) that they are truly brutal, sadistic and cruel I don't think there are any out and out good guys in Malifaux, just people trying to get by, and lots of shades of grey to keep things interesting. Even the supposedly good guys (eg. Perdita) are arguably just doing what they are good at, rather than on any mission to Do the Right Thing. Lady J has yet to show anything other her authoritarian jackboot side, and Sonnia is off on a jolly of her own these days. Ramos as the People's Champion? Discuss There are plenty of out and out bad guys, though - it is hard to see the redeeming sides of Seamus or Lord Chompy Bits or new Hamelin. Neverborn are the 'natives' and have their own customs and 'racial' idiosyncracies. TO judge them based upon what is 'normal' Earthside is wrong. I dare you to explain to a T-Rex that his survival methods are brutal, sadistic and cruel. Its in their nature and your perception is biased. One facet of Malifaux is there are NO good guys... everyone has an agenda, and none are self-sacrificing for a 'greater-good'. However, depending upon your perceptions again. (I do not have RP yet, its in the mail... still!) Though LCB is merely the protector of 'innocent' D. While Seamus is offering the 'Belles an opportunity to be free of their servitude and the worries of the flesh... he is a redeemer and also a saviour. If you can appreciate the simple fact that Malifaux is twisted, you can certain twist your Earthside perceptions to appreciate the lighter side of all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvatarForm Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I wasn't specifically saying that they were good, but of the three evils, Perdita is the most noble. Im sure if you dig deeper, Perdita is either scorned or has a massive chip on her shoulder and a 'daddy' complex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerdelemental Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Well I sure have no idea. What about Hoffman in the discussion, though? Doesn't he seem like a good man? Just weak and easily manipulated and controlled by others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 (edited) Re-read Malifaux Chronicles issue 1. The second paragraph in the meet the Neverborn chapter implicitly states that the Neverborn are the side effect of the original inhabitants of Malifaux using dark and horrible magic. I like to think of the Neverborn as Americans. They came, they committed genocide, they settled in, now they think they own the joint. Now other people are showing up with the same idea. This makes everyone evil... except The Plague and Seamus, they want to kill all life and since everyone deserves it, they can't really be all bad can they? They are doing both worlds a huge favor be getting rid of their pesky infestations. On a side note, further along in the article it refers to humans repopulating Malifaux in reference to the original Breach of the Great Barrier, which means that the original denizens of Malifaux were human. Which also implies that the Tyrant-Entities were human at some point. Edited October 3, 2010 by Mentor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastnerv Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 This is why I love the back story to this game so much. So twisted and awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Well I sure have no idea. What about Hoffman in the discussion, though? Doesn't he seem like a good man? Just weak and easily manipulated and controlled by others? He has good intentions at heart, all he wants is to save his brother, However the road to hell is paved in good intentions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alemon Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I've always thought the guild was mean, though Perdita did seem the lesser of the three evils--not really part of the government, just doing what she's good at and being recognized for it. I do think Lady Justice is the most "noble", though. It is justice, after all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Well I say that "good" and "evil" are nothing more than perceptions based on societal ideas and beliefs. Even racist bigots that want to eliminate all others that are different believe in doing it to protect what they believe society should be like. Heck, there are those that think the Dalai Lama is evil because he leads a campaign to free his Tibetan people from the strangle hold of China while China contends that Tibet has always been apart of China. They are just now taking a more active roll in its governing and removed its rebellious elements. So what is "good" and what is "evil"? In over 8000 years of written philosophies, and stories of the fight between good and evil, no one has been able to define them, while being rational. So I say while there are no Good Guys there are also no Bad Guys, only individuals fighting for their own ideas of what right and wrong is. It is a world of personal agendas where righteousness is another word for idealogical arrogance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werecat Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I'd argue that Kirai is one of the least evil of the players in Malifaux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illustrange Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 I'd argue that Kirai is one of the least evil of the players in Malifaux. to me the least "evil" are funnily enough (in order) Hoffmann, Collette, Kirai and the Dreamer (the dreamer himself first, but one could argue the master isnt the dreamer but LCB.. wich would throw him out of the list ) the only ones I would define as evil are Seamus, Mcmourning, Hamelin not many of the others come close. its all personal opinion, it depends how you measure evil. for me those aspects are needed : 1.be fully aware that your acts are evil, 2.the goal being only and purely for personal "gain" (lust, desire, greed, bloodlust.) that on its own is evil allready (power for example isnt.) and be aware of that. there is much more to it offcourse. so how I see it from lesser evils to greater evils : the goodies : Hoffmann - Collette the misguided : the Dreamer (LCB cause) - Kirai - LadyJ the greater gooders : Ramos - Nicodem - Zoraida the warheroes : Perdita - Lilith - Viktorias (?) the egocentric : Pandora - Sonia criid - Leveticus the evil : Seamus - Mcmourning - Hamelin not so sure about : Rasputina - she is all over the place, above all she seems curious, but careless of harm she might potentially do and aware of it.. either egocentric or the evil list for her. Marcus - I dont know anything about him (have I missed fluff in book 1 ?) Som'er - its not yet clear for me if he wants a better life for his kin... or just for his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted October 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 its all personal opinion, it depends how you measure evil. for me those aspects are needed : 1.be fully aware that your acts are evil, 2.the goal being only and purely for personal "gain" there is much more to it offcourse. This is an interesting thread indeed! I think it's important to observe the motivations behind masters' actions indeed, as a lot of them are motivated by strong emotions, particularly pain/hurt I would feel I'd classify them something like this: . Those who are hurt in some way and seek justice/revenge/freedom? --> Hoffman, LadyJ (revenge from Judge having been hurt?), Kirai, Colette (grew up poor, seeks financial justice for herself and her girls through any way she can), Rasputina (freedom from Guild/December), Neverborn in general ("get out of my land!") but maybe more Pandora and Lilith? . Those who have an ego-trip --> Sonnia, Resers except Kirai (controlling beings in a God-like way), Ramos, Colette could be also seen in this section, LCB, Zoraida (although she doesn't seem to put herself in the foreground too much), Levi, Som'er?, Hamelin . Those who are "numb" and chose not to engage too far in a side: Perdita, Marcus?, Dreamer, Viktoria I think we can have more or less compassion on each emotion originating the motivations; feel sorry for the bitter and wounded, feel angry with those seeking power through crushing others (or I guess some kind of fascination, as one might admire Darth Vader), feel curious with those withdrawn in neutrality. Coming back to the Guild vibe in the OP, I feel Lady J is the one who, a little like Jean Valjean in Les Mis, obeys blindly (sorry for the pun) orders coming from a crook; she believes in justice and a "right order", but takes command from a crook. One cannot help but wonder whether in the future she'll put her grudge against the undead aside and start restoring order in her own house ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakrulz55 Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 isnt it all in perspective though? take an average joe who is fresh to malifaux. the person hasnt seen much would probably think of the guild as the good guys the front to be. then take someone from the neverborn side of things. probably has a severe case of "get off my lawn" syndrome. then take a person whos dug into malifaux a bit and found himself some new magic abilities (arcanists or resurectionist) and is probably out to expand thier powers or is just wanting to be left alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werecat Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 to me the least "evil" are funnily enough (in order) Hoffmann, Collette, Kirai and the Dreamer (the dreamer himself first, but one could argue the master isnt the dreamer but LCB.. wich would throw him out of the list ) the only ones I would define as evil are Seamus, Mcmourning, Hamelin not many of the others come close. its all personal opinion, it depends how you measure evil. for me those aspects are needed : 1.be fully aware that your acts are evil, 2.the goal being only and purely for personal "gain" (lust, desire, greed, bloodlust.) that on its own is evil allready (power for example isnt.) and be aware of that. there is much more to it offcourse. so how I see it from lesser evils to greater evils : the goodies : Hoffmann - Collette the misguided : the Dreamer (LCB cause) - Kirai - LadyJ the greater gooders : Ramos - Nicodem - Zoraida the warheroes : Perdita - Lilith - Viktorias (?) the egocentric : Pandora - Sonia criid - Leveticus the evil : Seamus - Mcmourning - Hamelin not so sure about : Rasputina - she is all over the place, above all she seems curious, but careless of harm she might potentially do and aware of it.. either egocentric or the evil list for her. Marcus - I dont know anything about him (have I missed fluff in book 1 ?) Som'er - its not yet clear for me if he wants a better life for his kin... or just for his own. Huh, interesting. I never considered McMourning to be all that evil. Just... Curious. He is a doctor/scientist of sorts, after all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illustrange Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 He is a doctor/scientist of sorts, after all lol, and that does make it impossible for someone to be evil ? evil scientist is one of the most stereotypical representations of a "pure evil" after all, he knows what he is doing, has no regards for the consequences, does purposedly do harm in the progress and the only motivation is a perverse curiosity still my favorite master tough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werecat Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Yeah, but it just doesn't seem malicious to me. He just wants to figure out what sort of rad stuff he can stitch together, ha ha. He is the coolest master in the game though. That's right! I said it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinigami Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 the only good guy in malifaux is.... The Dreamer! sweet innocence! hes just playing games in his dreams, isnt he? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakrulz55 Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 im pretty sure marcus is the only "good guy" because he really doesnt do anything except hang out in the woods. but the dreamer innocent? have you seen the kinds of games he plays? there prety cruel and insane. also mcmourning is kinda evil depending on your views on destrbing the dead. and if your taking innocent im pretty sure molly takes the cake as she happened to be at the right place at the wrong time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 the only good guy in malifaux is.... The Dreamer! sweet innocence! hes just playing games in his dreams, isnt he? Yeah, but he pulls the legs off beetles... @Nerdelemental: Hoffman has come to Malifaux just to get on with getting on, and been caught up in things he doesn't fully understand. He is being manipulated by Ramos and used by the Governor - I guess we'll see what way he jumps! How about Molly? Okay, so she's one of the Evil Dead, but there's something human ticking away beneath the surface there. At least, I reckon there is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniele Posted October 3, 2010 Report Share Posted October 3, 2010 Marcus doesn't fit the "innoccent guy" more then mcmourning. The only difference is the subject of their studies! Marcus is the creator of chimearas in the first place! Forcing nature under his palm is another stereotype of misguided evil scientists I'd say His character though might be less infernal than the ressers. But still I feel more sympathy for the arcanists as they all are some kind of victims (like it was said before they had to suffer for some reason). And I like Sonnia criid, she is halfway an arcanist already and I could imagine her to switch sides in the progress of the story somehow. She leads her crew by force (her servants explode if they fail!) She thinks that the time of suppressing magic has come to an end and she minds her own business in all her guild work... she is like the devil (and commands the element of fire - fits in pretty good) Still there are those with intentions focussing on their own person and such focussing on the needs of others! In the end i agree with murphyslawyer. The definition of good and evil is impossible to man, but it is an exceptionally interesting thing to discuss!:hmmmm: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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