The Dreamer and LCB warroom. Pros and Cons!

[Ciaran]

We've heard a lot of noise about them being overpowered. We've heard a lot about them being a one trick pony.

I'm sure the truth, as it so often is, is somewhere in the middle. Since it seems to be a sensitive topic, how about we start clean?

Would someone walk me through how the Alps work in practice? I understand the theory behind them, it just seems like a huge gamble.

How about the L&L strategy? That seems to be a very strong and brittle plan that could be pretty easily shattered. Anyone have any experience here?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I say that people who post should also remember that everyone has a different play style and all tables will look different. In fact there are many variables that need to be accounted for. So be flexible in your judgement.

[Iamwyrd]

Starting clean and ending clean, if you know how lcb and the dreamer works, you essentially fly up the dreamer, and poof all of your Alps within 3" of a model, when the model surrounded model activates it has to make a Wp 12 check at a negative flip for each ALP up to -4 Max. So unless you flip good or are a master you will 9/10 fail. When you fsail you take a wound for each ALP in 3". So if you had 6 then 6wds. But then if you try to walk or strike then you immediately take a wound for each ALP in 3". So its good but not flawless. There are models with aoes and spell casters alike that can thwart them. But models that don't have a hard time with them. And that is another thing, you potentially are only getting one model from this tactic, cause the Alps will get smashed.

To the L&L trick I've never heard of except they activate right after another. The only trick I know of is the infinite lure with lilitu and Nekima combo.

[AvatarForm]

/thread.

Im quite certain this has all been covered in previous threads. Some of which are still on the front page of this forum.

[Zethal]

...But then if you try to walk or strike then you immediately take a wound for each ALP in 3".

Exhaustion has a 1" area of effect not 3".

[Extinction Angel]

Well, I think it breaks down as simple as this:

LCB strengths: clumped together, low WP, low model count

LCB Weaknesses: spread out, high WP/immune to morale, Ranged attacks, high mobility, expendable crew members

Obviously, how this affects individual crews will vary. But it's definitely a good starting point.

[karn987]

I've chosen a few excepts from my Tactica and tweaked them a tad. I think they give a good high level view of things before diving deep into each model.

This is a look at the crew's over-all Meta as I see it. It doesn't cover edge cases and of course, there are other ways to play him besides what I say here =)

To start with I must say, next to Pandora this is the master that sets his crews play style the most. His abilities are amazing and what he can do with his Nightmares is nothing short of terrifying. But to get the full use out of him I believe 100% that you want as many Nightmares in his crew as you can get. You want Nightmares over any other type. The reasons being that his abilities, spells, and meta revolve around models with this type.

The Dreamer is a scalpel. This is to say he strikes at a very precise point and cuts it out. His abilities are 100% board and army control and his own offensive abilities are rather limited. Lord Chompy Bits (from here on out referred to as LCB) is his offensive form but it leaves him without any of his control abilities. So as you can see right off the bat you have the hard choice of Combat Prowess or Board Dominance. Don't get overwhelmed yet; I will address all this in time. But I want you to understand what you are facing. Dreamer wants to strike at one point and then withdraw. NIGHTMARES ARE NOT TOUGH. With the exception of Teddy they are very easy to take down for the most part. This means you can not afford to sit down and slug it out with anyone. Especially not the guild, who will make short work of you. You survive by retreating after your strikes and nullifying the enemy through special effects and defensive abilities. If there was ever an army that exemplified the motto Choose were to fight and the idea of Keep your enemy off balance at every turn, this would be the army (crew). Through careful use of the Dreamers abilities you can control the entire battlefield and keep your opponent playing catch-up each and every turn. Don't fight on multiple fronts unless it benefits you.

So you may be asking yourself, well Karn if the Dreamer is a Scalpel, wtf does that really mean? Well I'm glad you asked! What it means is he cannot fight a typical battle. His crew simply will not last (unless you’re very very lucky). While they can deal out some nasty damage, they cannot out DPS the Guild. You also don't have the numbers or the durability to trade models with the Ressurectionists etc etc. The idea is you need to fight on your terms. The Dreamer swoops in, drops off a whole bunch of Nightmares and then backs off. Don't leave him hanging and make sure to drop off just the right amount of Nightmares to get the job done. Dropping all of them at once seems tempting, but they tend to stumble over each other and things just get congested. Alternatively you could use the Daydream to drop off some Nightmares and then have the Dreamer pick them back up once they have activated. This model cycling is the key to victory with the Dreamer. Don't leave a model hanging if they are going to be in danger if you can help it. Try to lose as few models as you can each turn because you will need them. You can very quickly sweep through a flank and get your models out of there if you do things right. Strike and vanish. That is the Dreamer's style. Your entire crew can move a huge distance via the Dreamers abilities and you need to learn to capitalize on this each and every turn of every game.

As I said at the start, the Dreamer is a scalpel. His crew can not stand up and fight in the trenches like most others can. They are not that durable and they are often lacking in speed and df. With this in mind, they want to strike and get out of the way as often as they can. If they can’t escape, they want to debuff the enemy to the point where they can’t do much or they are so heavily crushed under your effects that they can’t hurt you. Or you could always just kill all your threats, that probably works best ;D.

That said, the Dreamer’s crew has extremely high damage potential and can quickly ambush and kill most targets and especially Masters. Drop a few Teddy’s on the master and most will quickly crumble to their damage. Drop a set up Madness on a master with an Alp or two and a Teddy for good measure, and even the toughest will utter a curse before they are brought to their knees.

You models need to work together to truly be their most dangerous. Weather it’s putting Madness’s in the right place to make Terrifying and Wp resist spells and effects hard to deal with or throwing in a Teddy to help keep Coppelius safe. But the idea is, look for spots where they can help each other out. Madness is the big model for helping the rest out the most because he can quickly turn a high Wp model into a cowering mess with his effects. They make Terrifying truly terrifying and make most of your spells and abilities nearly guaranteed to not be resisted.

You don’t have to play “fair” to play well with this crew. You actually want to avoid straight up fights and not be nailed down the enemy. Pretty much, any time you have to fight on their terms, is probably a time you want to avoid. Instead hang around for a bit and wait for them to come to you a bit more, then spring your trap on them.

Probably the hardest thing to master is the bouncing of LCB in and out of play. Any of your effects which can bring in Nightmares or bury them, can be used to switch between the Dreamer and LCB. This is important to remember because LCB can do a huge amount of damage, plus being a master he has Use Soulstone to help him out. But you can use a Daydream to bring him out and then another to put him away. A favorite tactic of mine is using the Daydreams Call Nightmares ability to unbury LCB and a few friends on the enemy master.

But just keep your mind open, and be prepared to adapt to the game as things unfold before you. Things can change quickly in Malifaux and you need to be ready to adapt to them. Luckily, the Dreamer is rather good at this. You can quickly change from pressuring one flank to the other and just as quickly change back.

Note on the Nightmare Type:

Nightmares are not living models! This means they do not leave corpse counters. They are not subject to anything which states “living model”. They are also not undead or anything else. They are just Nightmares. This makes you really good against Ressurectionists as they can’t replenish off of you. Huzzah!

[karn987]

When going against the Dreamer:

You need to look at what models your opponent has at the start and make a decision. If they are packing a bunch of Alps and Madness, you want to spread out. If they are rolling several big Nightmares you want to cluster.

You want to spread out against Alp and Madness swarms because they rely on their short range aura's (effective range for the combo is 3") to deal their damage and disabling effects. If you spread out enough, they will only catch one or two models in them. So you leave those guys for last and activate your other models and take care of those Alps. Alps and Madness are really easy to kill once you can get your weapons on them. Get within 6" to avoid Tarnkappe but stay out of 1" to avoid exhaustion. Melee is the best way to go against these guys if you have reach of 2+". If you don't stay away from them unless your willing to take a wd or two.

For clustering against big Nightmares, again the Nightmares durability is what will do them in. Only really Teddy can take a punch and keep on going and Lelu to a smaller extent. They are both also melee machines and WILL rip your face of if you leave them alone or let them get the drop on you. You cluster up against terrain or anything that can block their base from being placed and put your defenders on the outer edge to absorb/make the first blows. Hard to Kill models and Hard to Wound models are good choice for this as are very high armor targets like the Ice Golem.

But the biggest wrench in your plans will often been Lord Chompy Bits himself. He is fighting Lady J for the nastiest melee master in the game and towers over her reach and speed. What really makes him an issue is that he can pop up nearly anywhere on the board in the same fashion as the other Nightmares. He is a master so he has Use Soulstones and can deal a very very deadly alpha strike to you. You need to be aware of this all game long and try to discourage him from doing this. His reach is huge 3" with his claws which means he can reach past almost any model trying to block for you. So you need to space your blockers out a bit more, he can't come in if his 50mm base can't fir there.

Remember this though, LCB is as fragile as the rest of his crew. He has no armor, a lowish average Df, and no df abilities at all. He is all teath and claws. So even if he does get your master or your powerful model, you can still get him. If your opponent wants to foolishly throw him away to get you, let him do it. Then crush him for it. This will also give you a moment to get the Dreamer as he will appear when you kill LCB. If he has already gone this turn (say to move up and drop LCB) you have a chance to kill him, go for it with all you have. With the Dreamer dead, the crew becomes dramatically weaker. They rely on the Dreamer for their transport, their maneuverability, and their safety.

Final word of advice:

Kill Daydreams if you get the chance. They are a huge lynch pin in the Dreamers crew and play style as they allow him to turn back into the Dreamer from LCB and greatly increase his crews threat range with their own unburying tricks. They can even bring LCB into play. They are not that tough, just put a solid hit into them and they go down. Just be careful, when a Daydream dies a single Nightmare can pop out. When the Dreamer dies, ALL Nightmares pop out.

Lastly..... don't hug the Teddys, they bite.

[AvatarForm]

HOLY WALLS OF TEXT... those interested, simply PM Karn your email addy and get the PDF from him, its worth the 30 or so page read.

[Ciaran]

Karn, this is great stuff, it's easily one of the most actionable write ups I've seen, and it's much appreciated.

I'm going to have to find someone to proxy the crew now.

Let's keep the good discussion going!

Edited September 24, 2010 by Ciaran

[karn987]

Thanks guys. =)

Walls of Text are kinda what I do >.> Heh. I'm currently working on trying to condense my write ups of each model down so that I can throw them up to.

[Korrova]

Couple questions regarding LCB and the burying tricks:

1. If you use an ability with no described end time then it ends during the closing phase. If you use one of these abilities and then bury the user, is the ability still active since he never experienced a closing phase?

2. Can a Daydream use magical extension to bury any nnumber of nightmares within 6" of himself and include himself?

[karn987]

Couple questions regarding LCB and the burying tricks:

1. If you use an ability with no described end time then it ends during the closing phase. If you use one of these abilities and then bury the user, is the ability still active since he never experienced a closing phase?

2. Can a Daydream use magical extension to bury any nnumber of nightmares within 6" of himself and include himself?

1) Depends on where the ability is. If it's on the model that got buried, then it is not in play and does not ever see a closing phase so it would not go. For example: If Madness did Psychopathic Episode and then was buried, PE would not end until it was in play for a closing phase.

But if say Pandora put Project Emotions Pity on someone and then she got buried, Project Emotions would still end at it's normal time (during the closing phase). But if the model that had Project Emotions on it got buried, Project Emotions would not end until that model was in play during a closing phase.

I think that's what your were asking about... had to read it a few times to get myself straight on it. ><

2) You are indeed within 6" of yourself. So by RAW and I think by RAI, you can.

Edited September 26, 2010 by karn987

[Korrova]

Those were exactly the questions that I was looking for answers to.

I like to be able to send one daydream and something inconsequential (like one lone alp) to interact with objectives. Then I bury them both and The Dreamer brings them back to where the fight is happening.

Also, the "buffs" not dropping off if your in the closing phase makes every daydreams and alps always have a -1 Willpower bubble from the first turn onward. Pretty strong...

[karn987]

Those were exactly the questions that I was looking for answers to.

I like to be able to send one daydream and something inconsequential (like one lone alp) to interact with objectives. Then I bury them both and The Dreamer brings them back to where the fight is happening.

Also, the "buffs" not dropping off if your in the closing phase makes every daydreams and alps always have a -1 Willpower bubble from the first turn onward. Pretty strong...

Yup! This is what the Dreamer and his crew do =) It's one of the biggest advantages they have when brought with the Dreamer as opposed to another master.

Stitched Together, Alps, Daydreams, and Madness all make great use of this. Teddy can make good use of it as well for his Smell Fear, just not as often.