Whatsicle Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 (edited) Raintar, that's untrue. The wording is "Living models hit receive paralyze." (Page 132) It doesn't say after damaging defending model, or after defender has taken damage, or any of the other ways triggers that involve damage specify this. You could hit, flip a black joker.. and paralyze. Bam! No damage is possible, you're absolutely right, but a status effect isn't the same as damage. Also I'm not sure what your argument is any more other than that masters are broken because they can cheat and use SS. What you're saying won't work against the dreamer... doesn't work (in that you're defining that as a definitive 100% win) against any master. For instance: 1a) Papa Loco won't kill the dreamer... Papa Loco won't kill most masters in a single explosion, even if he goes from 'Take Ya With Me' to 'Boom'. One chance to resist, two to prevent damage.. 1b) To attack any master you need lots of high cards usually with suits. 1c) If that master gets initiative first against something they kill it. ...it's what they do. Nino 2) Paraphrase: Nino can't kill in one turn if [The Dreamer] has SS. Nino can't kill any master in one turn if they have enough SS - three burned SS to boost def, three chances to prevent damage... and average damage for those 2-3 shots is 3 ea anyway. 3) ...And so on. I think I've made my point! The Dreamer and LCB are pretty awesome, and that's good.. they need to be awesome, all the other masters are. Heck, even Ramos is hard to kill if he's sitting on 8 soul stones, and he's the farthest thing from a melee master imaginable! But I don't get what about him makes him so much more broken than any of the other broken masters. (Which is to say, all of them.) Edited September 23, 2010 by Whatsicle Added page number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandwich Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Isn't LCB a Nightmare? I don't think Nightmares are considered Living. I don't think Bete can paralyze him. :x She could certainly drop his 10 health in 1 flurry, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 K you also have a cheat, and also if you soulstone prevent all damage paralyze doesn't go off because you didn't do damage. Bête Noire Paralyze goes off a hit. Damage isn't requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alemon Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Isn't LCB a Nightmare? I don't think Nightmares are considered Living. I don't think Bete can paralyze him. :x She could certainly drop his 10 health in 1 flurry, though. Winner, Winner! killing him with straight damage is right, though. Especially with his nothing defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatsicle Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 (edited) If Nightmares are not living, which you could very well be right about, you're right. It wouldn't work. I will leave it up to you, the fine folks whose book isn't out in the freezing car, to figure that one that! Edit: You already did! You guys are quick. ...Before it gets suggested though, I don't think The Dreamer not being a living model is broken, though. After all, neither is Ramos! Edited September 23, 2010 by Whatsicle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alemon Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 If Nightmares are not living, which you could very well be right about, you're right. It wouldn't work. I will leave it up to you, the fine folks whose book isn't out in the freezing car, to figure that one that! Edit: You already did! You guys are quick. ...Before it gets suggested though, I don't think The Dreamer not being a living model is broken, though. After all, neither is Ramos! Oh, this has made me angry time and time again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Uh, I keep forgetting Nightmares aren't living. The Dreamer is a spirit anyway, so he's non-living too. Still Bête can easily Slow them and cause up to 12 damage or she can go all out with Groin Strike and force the target to burn his entire Hand and up to 6 Soulstones. The beauty of Bête is that she gets so many flips, especially with Groin Strike that she hardly ever has to cheat, while her opponents have to cheat every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 (edited) If I remember correctly Raintar, you posted at one point your near Maple Shade NJ? I'm in pennsauken, as are two of my roomates, if you want to set up a time to go play some games at ye olde or ATF, I would be totally down for that. His six inch barrage is tough, but they don't immediately activate when they hit the ground, Perdita's whole family would go next. and I'm willing to bet some killing would occur. The other key factor your discussing is how LCB would kill anything he hits on his turn two alpha charge. My master is always my most important model, you stated yourself that for him to chain onslaught kill something he is burning soulstones to get the proper triggers (also, against non masters/ models with use SS that can simply make him miss). You know what the say, if mines bigger then yours. Edited September 23, 2010 by Dolomyte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvatarForm Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Very good points from Dolomyte... cant wait to play my Lillith crew in october Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Raintar, you are making some assumptions here 1) Just because you can soul stone your defense doesn't mean you will succeed. Sure its helpful but I have seen many times where you get an ace with a soul stone. 2) You will run out of Soul Stones and cards eventually and rather quickly with many armies. So sure you have your LCB out and killed one model. Your L's have probably taken out 1 or 2 more. But then the rest of my army has all its activations to come back at you. Its the same problem as the Ortega Alpha strike. Its a great tool but if used to soon or incorrectly you end up giving your opponent the same advantage back at them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raintar Posted September 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 All I need to do is live is the one activation between LCB and the Lelu's because between them your army will crumble. I'd be killing alot of it before it would even get to go on me because I'm charging all the way across the board summoning my entire list and then they attack all in 2 activations. Those two activations will kill a vast majority of my opponents army no matter what he has. LCB will move 16 inches across the board and have 3" range and kill their best unit and whatever's next to it (non-master) and then the Lelu's clean up. That's how it works and that's how it wins. @Dolomyte It's Maplewood, near NYC, it'd be quite a hike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whatsicle Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Yes but what's broken about all this? The summoning his entire army thing is a pretty new twist, but.. I still don't see how it changes the game disastrously. It just accelerates things so you're in melee a turn or two earlier. Since that's quite a few Master's (crew's) goal in the first place... (The Viks, Lilith, Lady J, Marcus, McMorning, Nicodem...) Am I illiterate and missing something major? (Possibility!) If he could clear the board in a single turn, place (not summon) all his guys, and THEN give them all companion... that would be broken. What am I missing, that brings him across the line from cool to game-breaking / "overpowered" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buhallin Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 First off you once again did not read my example at all. both viks in my example are in range of a total 6 alps, so if one actvaites it has to take a wp test at a -5 flip. none of the viks are away from the alps both are in the alps range. So you cant Soul stone it. thats why it confused me the 1st time you said it. I know that you can Soul stone a normal wp flip to get a higher number but not in the case of alps. I think you're wrong on a couple of points here: 1. The maximum negative flips on anything is 3, it won't be to -5. 2. You can still soulstone on a negative flip, you just can't cheat it. So the point about only really needing a 5 is correct, and that's assuming the worst case on the max negative flips. I'm also having a really, really hard time seeing how this comes to pass on anything but one model, and even then at pretty hefty risk. The Dreamer's summon only has a 6" range, which means you've got to be that close to your target. I expect that to be a horribly exposed position for such a fragile model. Is being surrounded by Alps nasty? Sure. But how does it actually play out? It's a wonderful scenario to go "Look! If I surround every figure in your crew with Alps you're screwed!" but what does it mean in a real game? It means you've just put half your crew around one or two models that don't have to activate yet. So I take 6 damage if I activate one of the Viks - fine, I'll activate that Ronin over there, or maybe Hans, or anyone else in my crew. In the meantime you've got a lot of very fragile, very combat-incapable models just sitting there waiting for me to tear them up. Can it be nasty and annoying? Sure. I know the Alp swarm would make my Ice Golem cry snowy tears (well, up until Rasputina blasted the lot of them, anyway). But it's a highly situational approach. It's certainly not going to dominate in the general sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 2. You can still soulstone on a negative flip, you just can't cheat it. Are you sure? Without having my rulebook in front of me I'm pretty sure it says you cannot. I also just perused the FAQ and Errata(s) and didn't find it addressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Raintar, what crew were you in a scrap against when you did your exhaustive two game research? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WEiRD sKeTCH Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Are you sure? Without having my rulebook in front of me I'm pretty sure it says you cannot. I also just perused the FAQ and Errata(s) and didn't find it addressed. Using a Soulstone does not count as cheating. Spending a Soulstone is part of Changing your total. means no Cheating. Cheating is when you replace the flipped card with a card from your hand. And yes. I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Using a Soulstone does not count as cheating. Spending a Soulstone is part of Changing your total. means no Cheating. Cheating is when you replace the flipped card with a card from your hand. And yes. I'm sure. You just made my day! I swear we just looked it up the other day too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 (edited) Hah noobie. I have played every master and seen all of them at their best. My research is my general game knowledge. It's really easy to talk shit on an open forum when you don't know shit about the game right? Because if you did it in person I'd challenge you and make you look bad and prove how stupid you really are. Well at that point hell you'd probably agree with me that LCB is broken hahaha. Sure, come on down, and we can have a friendly game. Edited September 23, 2010 by Ciaran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Hah noobie. I have played every master and seen all of them at their best. My research is my general game knowledge. It's really easy to talk shit on an open forum when you don't know shit about the game right? Because if you did it in person I'd challenge you and make you look bad and prove how stupid you really are. Well at that point hell you'd probably agree with me that LCB is broken hahaha. http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15598 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Nilus, How right you are to bring that up. Sorry for taking this thread into the realm of the jerks everyone... Thanks for calling me on it too Nilus. Much appreciated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15598 Yeah exactly, thanks for bringing that up Nilus. This is seriously getting out of hand people. I think it's time everyone took a step back from this and move on. This thread has spiraled out of control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Hah noobie. I have played every master and seen all of them at their best. My research is my general game knowledge. It's really easy to talk shit on an open forum when you don't know shit about the game right? Because if you did it in person I'd challenge you and make you look bad and prove how stupid you really are. Well at that point hell you'd probably agree with me that LCB is broken hahaha. This is inappropriate. If anyone wants to continue a discourse on this level, please prepare yourself for the consequences found here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy'sLawyer Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 (edited) I think this thread has reached a point of uselessness. Arguing that you are right because you want to be is useless. And saying "no one understands" because they disagree is so Fox News and does not work in the world of grown-ups. I vote for locking this thread because it has not moved anywhere in five pages. If you don't want to listen to other experienced players because they disagree don't bother posting. Hope this is not coming off too rude but Raintar you have to listen to what we are saying reasonably. We would love to hear your experience. But we do not like being treated like kids. Edited September 23, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamwyrd Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 Hah noobie. I have played every master and seen all of them at their best. My research is my general game knowledge. It's really easy to talk shit on an open forum when you don't know shit about the game right? Because if you did it in person I'd challenge you and make you look bad and prove how stupid you really are. Well at that point hell you'd probably agree with me that LCB is broken hahaha. Yeah exactly, thanks for bringing that up Nilus. This is seriously getting out of hand people. I think it's time everyone took a step back from this and move on. This thread has spiraled out of control. I agree with karn, the language is not needed on a public forum. So lets please "simma down now!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaran Posted September 23, 2010 Report Share Posted September 23, 2010 What's frustrating is that here were a couple of solid pages of GREAT discussion, that got hijacked into meanness. Can we continue with the honest dialogue, or should we start a new thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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