The Dreamer/LCB is overpowered

[karn987]

I've been out of touch with this thread for a few days and finally caught up.

@Raintar: I honestly don't think you have enough experience to really make a good case for your point man. You have played him twice. You need to field him more and against more masters and crews and players. Please, stop for now and go play some more ok? If nothing else, it will give what your saying some more credibility.

@Natty: I think you put Alps a very good way. They are strong and very situational, but they are a tad boring especially when you spam them. I think 2 of them in a crew with the other interesting Nightmares is great. They give some defensive abilities to our glass cannon of Nightmares.

[Korrova]

I'm currently playing in a league at my FLGS and I'm running The Dreamer as my master. So far I've put in about 10 or so games with him, and I've tried two different lists. (League is 35 pts.)

List 1

The Dreamer / LCB

Daydream x2

Teddy x2

Stitched Together x2

Stones x8

List 2

The Dreamer / LCB

Daydream x2

Teddy

Coppelius

Alp x4

Stones x6

Both lists have worked quite well, and some of the insight from Karn's tactica article has served me well. I've played against a wide variety of masters and through many different strategies. In my opinion LCB is actually rather balanced.

I usually have to do my best to hide The Dreamer each game, and if I fail to do that he dies very easily. The Stones are almost always used defensively, either to boost defensive flips or to prevent damage. If the dreamer dies, then the list reverts to a few slightly over-costed models with no tricks. Glass cannons with no tricks don't last too long.

In my opinion Wyrd did a good job designing this master and the accompanying nightmares. He can be quite effective with different list styles, and to me this is a mark of good design. I'd much rather have something that can be effective doing it's job in different ways with different builds than something that is purely overpowered if you take the one specific "tourney list." The ability to accomplish this in one book with an entirely new set of models is quite commendable.

Anyway, in many games the "glass cannon" style army is often seen as broken early on, as it tends to protect itself with a variety of tricks that the opponent isn't used to seeing. Once more people get used to the way that the Dreamer plays and figure out where the weak points are, then it will take some true finesse to really be good with him.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

This thread is kind of entertaining. A brand spanking new master (We don't even know what his box looks like) and everyone has him figured out after a couple of games.:laughing:

On one side he is broken, killing everything unabated. On the other side he sucks and dies before he can be effective. Well all I can say is

:crap:

I believe everyone needs to listen to those who are saying to give LCB some table time before making any judgement. It will make you feel less stupid when he turns out to be different than what you claim. (Personally I think they game tested him enough to keep him balanced.)

[TimeLapse]

I'm saying this because you've got 6 WP, and you're going to flip at a minimum a one from the initial flip, and then you only need a 5 off the soulstone. 6+1+5=12. Furthermore, if the dreamer manages to walk up to you, and spawn them exactly where you don't want them, activate one of the sisters and drag the scary one out of range of exhaustion - clearly, because of the situation you've created for this debate, they're all stood next to eachother, and any of them that you get within 2" of the swordmistress will, unless you fail on some catastrophic level with flips, instagib from a single hit. Even if you need to be in range of an exhaustion or two, just target the closest first to thin out exhaustion, and every time you do this - you're drawing cards. tbh, wrapping the viktorias in alps is giving them free kills, nothing more.

Also. When you played against them the first time, did you ask to read what your opponents models could do? or did you just run dogs at them and pray? And why would you run dogs at people anyway? they're free corpses! You don't Attack people with them! You use them as fodder and then turn them into samurai/peiced together beast! Most agressive thing you do with them is use them for their -Df gang up thing. Against the dreamer, stand back, don't feed him models, and paste him with decay. Soon as LCB shows himself, you chain-paralize him, and keep him there for the rest of the game.

Also - just, if you worry about him dropping alps - activate dogs until he does. just flood him with pointless activations and don't move in on the dreamer until he's either activated and not emptied his reserves onto the table, or has. Then, and only then - start throwing spells at him with Nico. Not before. The dreamer starts out with an enormous activation dissadvantage, and abusing that is key to beating him.

First off you once again did not read my example at all. both viks in my example are in range of a total 6 alps, so if one actvaites it has to take a wp test at a -5 flip. none of the viks are away from the alps both are in the alps range. So you cant Soul stone it. thats why it confused me the 1st time you said it. I know that you can Soul stone a normal wp flip to get a higher number but not in the case of alps.

now sisters in battle let you pull one sister yes so one will have at lest 6 wounds and the other might have a chance if the alp player didn't deploy his alps right.

Like I said before i could care less if the dogs die but when my other summened stuff dies then it gets out of hand. I did read the alps moments before i faced them and did not fully understand what they can do. you can read a model in this game but not understand how good they work with others. on there own alps are not too good becuase you have a chance to defeat them before they give out free wounds that they dont have to work for or really do anything to get them. But with the dreamer LCB mix you get to deploy them anywhere you want.

And as for your last main point the dreamer does not have a weak first activation, he places his whole army. He flys to where he needs to be, and drops a whole army far away from there deployment zone that has yet to activate and are not summoned so they do not have slow. So in fact he has one of the strongest frist turns if any master.

What I wouldn't do if ramos had fly at 7 inches and could drop all his spiders so i wouldn't have to worry about fighting a ranged attack based list. Its simply one of the best df an army can have. You can deploy the dreamer behind terrain and once he activats he flys drops an army and is protected and has an army 13 Inches farther in then yours.

Also activating meanless models first is what the dreamer wants if he can get alps on your models before they activate its free wounds for him.

[AvatarForm]

I just wanna see the new minis... IMHO, If I arrive for a game and my minis look better painted and on thematic bases than my opponent, I already win in the realm of hobby and can settle for losing an enjoyable game.

[Raintar]

@Karn

I know full well what I'm talking about, I've seen every master in action and I know for sure that a very large majority of them cannot deal with what LCB brings with his list and I know that it's nearly unbeatable. The two games I played only proved my suspicion of him being broken. People cannot deal with an 8SS LCB charging 16" across the board, and then unburying alpha striking Lelus/Lilitu within 6 of him, it's just not gonna happen.

You don't understand my argument even when I made it crystal clear, and if you don't understand it you can you understand it's application?

[huntroll]

@Karn

I know full well what I'm talking about, I've seen every master in action and I know for sure that a very large majority of them cannot deal with what LCB brings with his list and I know that it's nearly unbeatable. The two games I played only proved my suspicion of him being broken. People cannot deal with an 8SS LCB charging 16" across the board, and then unburying alpha striking Lelus/Lilitu within 6 of him, it's just not gonna happen.

You don't understand my argument even when I made it crystal clear, and if you don't understand it you can you understand it's application?

Yeah, you I are right, I could not deal with Dreamer + LCB in my first game against them. Probably even in the second. Then I'd try to adapt, make them waste their alpha strike on sacrificable models, then counterattack and kill the master WITH THE WEAKEST DEFENSIVE STATS.

So instead of complaining on the forums, play more with/against LCB, because after 2 games you can't declare them OP.

Edited September 21, 2010 by huntroll

[karn987]

@Karn

I know full well what I'm talking about, I've seen every master in action and I know for sure that a very large majority of them cannot deal with what LCB brings with his list and I know that it's nearly unbeatable. The two games I played only proved my suspicion of him being broken. People cannot deal with an 8SS LCB charging 16" across the board, and then unburying alpha striking Lelus/Lilitu within 6 of him, it's just not gonna happen.

You don't understand my argument even when I made it crystal clear, and if you don't understand it you can you understand it's application?

I understand your arguments and your examples and everything you have said so far. But I still think you are wrong and I attribute this to your lack of experience with LCB and with him against a variety of Masters and crews.

Yes it is true he has an Alpha strike ability to rival even the Ortega's single activation Family strike. But it is no where near assured that he will win and there are many ways to stop it and at least mitigate it's impact. He is strong, but he is far from broken as you have been saying he is.

This is why I have said you should play him more. To me, even if you have been playing Malifaux for 20 years, I would say you need to play him more. He has many weaknesses and there are a number of ways to stop his assault. I simply think you need to step back, cool down, and go play him some more. Then come back once you've got around 10 games under your belt and see if you still think he is broken.

Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying he isn't very potent, he most certainly is. But what your viewing as unstoppable, I see as manageable. What you say is broken, I say you have just not found how to stop yet. I could nit pick through everything you say and point out where more experience with him and against a variety of crews will open your eyes more. But I don't really want to do that and I think you should go and figure it out for yourself at this point.

I'll give you an example that I've had recently that gave me a knee-jerk reaction of OMG Broken. I was playing against Kirai with Lilith and having an extremely hard time doing much to her. I hadn't played against Kirai with Lilith for a while. So naturally, I was getting my face handed to me as I was making mistakes. When I realized how high the Spirits wounds are compared to their cost and coupled with the Spirit trait, I was really annoyed. They are some of the most durable models in the game vs non-magic attacks. But I played a few games against her and quickly realized that they are not that bad and I just needed to tackle Kirai and her crew in a different manner. Rather then trying to wipe the crew out, I went for Kirai and nailed her. I found a way through her abilities and a solid way for Lilith to triumph against her. But if I had gone off my first one or two games against her, I would probably still think she is broken and to strong.

Edited September 21, 2010 by karn987

[thaehl]

@raintar

I have seen the LCB beaten, I have played 20+ games with the beast himself and he is not in any way as broken as you say the way to beat LCB is model placement, spreading out is vital and convict is also a nice tool to kill the beast. just a tid-bit.

[izikial]

what is alpha striking.

just a side note, if you have to guys with companion to your master can only one activate as it says imidiatly after

[Keltheos]

Alpha striking is an old Battletech term used when you're firing all your weapons at once, so making a bunch of attacks, or activating every model in your Crew at once to instakill a Master or whatever for Malifaux.

When you activate two or more models at once, you declare they're activating, then nominate one to spend its AP, once done you do the next you declared activating, and spend its AP before your opponent gets to activate his next model.

[izikial]

thanks keltheos

[Hesky]

I found a way through her abilities and a solid way for Lilith to triumph against her.

I would like to hear about this mate. I struggle with Lilith against her.

[karn987]

I would like to hear about this mate. I struggle with Lilith against her.

After I finish with Pandora's tactica update, Ill try to throw something together for you on this. Poke me if I don't get back to you in a week or so, I get distracted now and then >.>

[Raintar]

Sigh I'm not saying he's unbeatable, just overpowered, there is a huge difference. His low defense stats don't mean anything because he's a master and will have soulstones and terrifying 14 to defend him any way he needs it. Not to mention he will basically kill anything he charges...and up to 2 more units within 3" of him.

So you have one activation before the rest of my army that I just summoned on your head goes, in which you will not kill LCB unless you use your master and get really lucky because any other unit cannot even come close to killing it because I have Use soulstones and you do not.

You might kill a Lelu which would by far be your best option but I'm going to be smart in my placement of them and not put them too badly in harms way. They have 9 wounds and regen 2 which is pretty good defensively so that really shouldn't be a problem.

Instead of attributing my inexperience I will ask that you actually make an argument for why it will not work or a counter to what I said because as far as I know there aren't many and thus the reason for the making this thread.

[alemon]

The more I read of this thread, the more convinced I am that you are a troll.

"Sigh I'm not saying he's unbeatable, just overpowered, there is a huge difference. His low defense stats don't mean anything because he's a master and will have soulstones and terrifying 14 to defend him any way he needs it. Not to mention he will basically kill anything he charges...and up to 2 more units within 3" of him."

His low defense stats DO mean something. They mean you have to use soulstones or die really fast to anything with decent CB and damage. Yes, a melee monster master is a powerful hitter. This does not make him overpowered.

"So you have one activation before the rest of my army that I just summoned on your head goes, in which you will not kill LCB unless you use your master and get really lucky because any other unit cannot even come close to killing it because I have Use soulstones and you do not.

You might kill a Lelu which would by far be your best option but I'm going to be smart in my placement of them and not put them too badly in harms way. They have 9 wounds and regen 2 which is pretty good defensively so that really shouldn't be a problem."

I am confused as to why the rest of your army goes after my one activation-- Sorry if I'm missing something, I lent my book out. I don't think anything but the daydreams have companion, though. So aside from being in melee range now so that my melee crew doesn't have to move into range of your nightmares, the turns will work out about the same, activation wise. Unless I'm playing...say...the Ortegas. Then you're hosed. Neverborn hunter FTW! Perdita, pewpew, Francisco, Santiago, papa loco even. Going in that order, melee fighting won't be much of a problem. Sadly, Nino is down, but you can't win them all. I hear the showgirls do pretty well too, but no one's been willing to play them since they're unpainted. Has anyone else played the showgirls against the Dreamer and his nightmares?

...You're going to be smart in your placement of your Lelu? well then, I'll just be smarter in my placement.

Edited September 22, 2010 by alemon

[Justin]

I would like to hear about this mate. I struggle with Lilith against her.

I don't know, but my guess is something like this:

Transposition + whirlwind = HOLY SHIT WHERE'D ALL MY SEISHIN GO?!?!

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Transposition + whirlwind = HOLY SHIT WHERE'D ALL MY (Fill in whatever model your up against) GO?!?!

Fixed.

Raintar I will suggest you back off some and go play some more games. Play against different opponents with different masters and see if the your hypothesis holds true. Heck if we are to go by personal win/lose scores to gage weather a Master is broken then any master I play is broken. :whistle: (My record is better than normal)

Basing a models abilities by a small number of games without seeing him being used by another player is seriously jumping the gun. Slow down play some games and see if it still holds true.

Edited September 22, 2010 by Murphy'sLawyer

[karn987]

I don't know, but my guess is something like this:

Transposition + whirlwind = HOLY SHIT WHERE'D ALL MY SEISHIN GO?!?!

>.> Yeah... it about boils down to that which makes it seem allll to simple. ;D

[LoboStele]

I hear the showgirls do pretty well too, but no one's been willing to play them since they're unpainted. Has anyone else played the showgirls against the Dreamer and his nightmares?

I've played one game with Colette's crew against LCB. We ran 35SS, and so I played Colette, Cassie, 2 Perf/Mannequins, Johan, and a proxied Arcanist Gunsmith. He was running a crew with 2 Stitched, 2 Teddys, and 2 Daydreams...and I forget if there was anything else. It wasn't pretty, but that's because my opponent did a stellar job of using his pieces wisely, and I let me squad get too spread apart. I spent an entire turn at one point just trying to get Colette and Cassie back into the fray. I managed to get rid of a Stitched and a Teddy (I think) before I got slaughtered. Having played it a tad better, I would've been in much better shape. He kept using the Stitched's Gamble abilities to drain my hand of cards, and then I couldn't make Terrifying saves if my life depended on it, even with Colette's Wp bonus, lol. I'd flip 2s and 3s on Terrifying, and then flip 12s and 13s for stupid other things. So, I think if I played it a tad smarter, I might be in better shape. Also, using the Coryphee's, so they can ignore the Terrifying (thank you Constructs!) would possibly help, though the fact that they only do 2/3/4 damage might suck. Teddy's are tough with stupid 9 Wds and Regen.

[Dolomyte]

Ways to deal with LCB / Dreamer.

Papa loco obey bomb. something like 24 inch range, then he can do 6 damage to everything (the dreamer) within 11 inches (a walk then bomb). Dreamer Dead, all the buried unbury, LCB is out in your deployment zone. Would always work, 100% of the time, on turn 1, dreamer could not do shite.

Nino Ortega Obey Chained. (harder to pull off, but still can kill dreamer or LCB.) Prolly need to play this out

Nurse / Dog / Bete Noire Popping out to paralyze. Prolly need to play the game out

Rasputina / totem activate, frozen heart an acoloyte, arc decembers curse onto a daydream and then blast damage dreamer to death, or LCB, again, would require playing the game out

Lilith / Nekima / Totem Totem quakes the group forward on turn two, translocates a terror tot for dreamer or lcb with some soul stone love, lilith and nekima wont have trouble killing both in one round of combat. if you have an action left over you can translocate lilith out of trouble from the mobs left behind. (this, by the way, works against everything, translocate is nuts)

Pandora / Jack daw / doppleganger good luck buddy.

Gremlins!!!! Hide the skeeters 10 inches away in four different directions, then when the strike deploys move them in and pull my finger!

and that's off the top of my head from book one, barely touched the infinite lilitu spam. Colettes now broken coryphee and cassandra (all the daydreams would be dead turn 1.) and many, many other lists.

Overarcing gameplan? space your stuff out.

Your two games were against players who had no idea how to counteract the alpha strike. Against those people it will be devestating, when they learn how to prevent it, he has not a ton going for him.

[Raintar]

Thank you Dolomyte for posting actual arguments. You would need to post entire armies rather then just a combo to actually test out the 1v1.

At 30 SS the list is LCB 8SS 2 Lelu, 1 Lilitu, 3 Daydreams.

1. Papa Loco w/ Abuela, Perdita

A valid argument, you have alot of things working against you though. Firstly you wouldn't kill the Dreamer with an explosion as per the Ghost of Malifaux rule and being immune to blasts. Secondly you would need alot of high suits to get it off which would be pretty difficult. Thirdly, if LCB gets initiative he'll be in on you before you can on him and if he gets his charge off before you get anything off it will be an uphill fight.

2. Nino Obeyed

Valid point as well, note that I will have soulstones and you won't probably won't be able to kill LCB in one turn with just him it would depend on who else you companion with.

3. Bete Noire Paralyze

Once again, soulstones vs regular units= huge advantage.

4. Lilith w/ Nekima

Nekima will be the one that I'd charge across the board to kill. Df 4 will get her Onslaughted to death in one activation unless I black joker that is. Lilith is always a problem but that why you have an entire list so I don't need to come at her directly.

5. Blasting daydream

You would never hit it. It is just too far away they start far away and then allow LCB to charge turn 2 no questions asked.

Lol people are so quick to refute arguments before even understanding what the argument is. If you think Colette's broken you should keep reading the book, and the Daydreams would absolutely not be dead turn one, or if they do die, I'd kill the Coryphee because that should be the first target vs Coilette and that's what you'd use to kill them anyway.

How do you counter dropping an entire army on somebodys head while charging with LCB? You can't, and that's the point of this thread. Spacing out won't even do anything I can cover so much of the board with my 6" summon there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Edited September 23, 2010 by Raintar

[alemon]

Where do you live, Raintar? Maybe I can play a few games with you before I go on hiatus.

[Q'iq'el]

3. Bete Noire Paralyze

Once again, soulstones vs regular units= huge advantage.

Actually this one is huge anti-master ability. Bête Noire needs only to hit, not to damage, to get Paralyzed in. She has Cb of 6 or 8 (with Bolster undead) and Paired weapons. And she Flurries her attacks.

She can very reliably paralyze even Lilith, and we're speaking about Df8 here (and even effective Df10 if the first Strike misses).

[Raintar]

K you also have a cheat, and also if you soulstone prevent all damage paralyze doesn't go off because you didn't do damage.