Thoughts on Killjoy + Bete in Redchapel crew?

[maelstrom808]

Just getting started and I'm going with a Redchapel crew. i was wondering what people thought about using Bete and Killjoy in the list. Sacrifice a Belle to bring in Killjoy and Bete should be able to drop in right beside him if I've read things right. If I do so, they should both be able to activate in the turn they drop in correct? Would this be a viable build, or am I putting too many eggs (soulstones) in one basket?

[chaosobscuros]

The sheer amount of points that you are putting into the two of them means that there is not going to be a lot left in your crew. In your example, Bette, Killjoy, and the Belle have already filled in 25 points. in a 35SS list, you have room for maybe two more Belles.

Its a huge point sink, but it can be fun to try out once or twice. The look on your opponent's face when they both come out in priceless! Try taking a Necropunk instead of the Belle though. If you use its Slow to Die to sacrifice for the Bette/Killjoy combo, you can bring them both out at the end of your opponent's activation, then have Killjoy (or Bete) wreak havoc immediately afterward. Bete's One With the Night notwithstanding, they will both probably die quickly after they appear, so do something fun with them.

[maelstrom808]

Yeah, I figured it might just be too many points. A couple of reasons I stuck with the belles is the ability to summon another one once I sacrifice it, the belles have Slow to Die as well, and the fact that a pack of necros on top of everything else puts it outside what I can spend (dollar wise)atm. I was hoping Killjoy would be a bit more surviveable to last more than a turn with 12Wd, Hard to Wound 2, and Eat Your Fill.

[Raintar]

Just use Nicodem, it's alot better and you can use a Vulture to drop it in with movement 10". You also don't have to pay one extra for Killjoy.

[maelstrom808]

While I agree that the Nicodem crew would be more effective for utilizing Bete and Killjoy (and I had in mind to build one eventually, which is one reason I'm looking at trying to fit them into the Redchapel crew), the dollar cost of putting an effective crew with those two together with Nic right now is more than I have to spend. I've got about $50 I can spare atm.

I really like the flavor of the Redchapel crew, so I might just put Killjoy on the back burner for now and build a more traditional crew for them within the budget I have.

[bigstupidfighter]

The Rule of Equivilency is slated to be errata'd in the near future, but as it stands now you can only summon 1 model as the result of another model's death. So no getting out Bete+Killjoy off the same Belle.

I will say my brother is fond of Seamus, and the everpresent threat Bete creates is a powerful weapon for his crews. Haven't seen Killjoy used with him but Bete I'd say is definitely a good investment.

[TimeLapse]

I would think about getting a cheeper model to summen stuff, soo I would take two dogs. One less bell you get two dogs, if a dogs dies summen a bell.

But i would agree bette and kill-joy is alot of points that dont start on the table.

Just some thoughts I like Bete myself but kill joy will deal more damage, but i would choose one or the other.

these are the lists i would look at for 30

Seamus

Copy Cat Killer totem 2

Madem Sybelle 6

Bell 4

Bell 4

Bete 9

Canine Renmains 2

Use the Canine to charge out there get killed and summen bete.

For kill joy

Seamus

Copy Cat Killer totem 2

Madem Sybelle 6

Bell 4

Canine Renmains 2

Canine Renmains 2

Kill Joy 12

Move the dogs up and sack one for kill joy, leave the other dog near by incase Kill joy needs to kill it to heal.

But basicly thats what I would run if kill joy or bete is a must.

though in a Seamus list the box set is solid, add in the copy cat killer and a puck zombie or two and you have a good list, use the bells to get models in range of the P zombies and use flury to take stuff out.

Just a thought I would just by the Red C. boxset, copycat totem and a pack of P zombies and call it good for now, bete would be something I would play with but kill joy is just too pricey.

This would be my choice for a starting list at 30SS

Seamus

Copy Cat Killer totem 2

Madem Sybelle 6

Bell 4

Bell 4

Bell 4

Punk Zombie 5

Punk Zombie 5

Take out a bell for some extra SS if you need it on your master.

Hope this helps

Andrew

Edited September 9, 2010 by TimeLapse

[maelstrom808]

The Rule of Equivilency is slated to be errata'd in the near future, but as it stands now you can only summon 1 model as the result of another model's death. So no getting out Bete+Killjoy off the same Belle.

Can you give me a source for that (main rulebook page or which FAQ/Errata)? I can't recall seeing it anywhere, and would like to read up on it.

I think for now, I'm picking up the Redchapel box, Bete, Copycat, and a box of Punk Zombies. That should give me enough flexibility to play with a few builds at different point levels.

[TimeLapse]

The Rule of Equivilency is slated to be errata'd in the near future, but as it stands now you can only summon 1 model as the result of another model's death. So no getting out Bete+Killjoy off the same Belle.

[maelstrom808]

That's pretty much exactly why I was asking for a source

[ProdigalPunk]

1) Belle's have slow to die, so you could use them the same as a necropunk, so I would not even worry about it, and if they are near Seamus they are pretty fast any how so they can zip across the field

2) The activate normally once they come in to play, so you would pick one to activate like any other model. The idea is you bring 1 out on your opponents turn, so they can activate next. Does not work as well if both come out as you can only pick one. Bete can not take hits well, so your opponent will probably take her out in a hit or two. Kill Joy probably will get to kill one target so pick wisely, then your opponent's entire army will bear down on him and take him out with their full might. If they don't do it fast enough he can kill another guy and eat his fill, at that point you should have things locked up pretty well.

3) Rule of Equivalency does not come into effect since the models are placed, so far it is only suppose to stop stuff like Kirai's gaki factory as far as I can tell

4) Depending on the Scheme you get, this combo might not beoverly effective, but it will be fun to play a few times.

[bigstupidfighter]

Rule of Equivilency has been updated, I have it sigged. Bete is in there as an example of something to be summoned, though it does seem odd since looking back you're right she is placed not summoned, so one would think the rule didn't apply to her... who knows.:thinking:

[TimeLapse]

So it turns out that it doesn't aply here at all, since neather of the models are summened.

[bigstupidfighter]

Well i'm not so sure, snice in the example for how the tule of equivilency works, Bete is used, and described as the one summon that is allowed. It's not as clear as it could be, but I think it means one model brought into play period, not one model that actually says Summoned in its entry. That or Ropetus had a brain cramp, I can't say for sure.

[Q'iq'el]

Well i'm not so sure, snice in the example for how the tule of equivilency works, Bete is used, and described as the one summon that is allowed. It's not as clear as it could be, but I think it means one model brought into play period, not one model that actually says Summoned in its entry. That or Ropetus had a brain cramp, I can't say for sure.

I think Kaelthos simply made a mistake in that example. I bet we'll see his clarification soon enough.

[TimeLapse]

Well i'm not so sure, snice in the example for how the tule of equivilency works, Bete is used, and described as the one summon that is allowed. It's not as clear as it could be, but I think it means one model brought into play period, not one model that actually says Summoned in its entry. That or Ropetus had a brain cramp, I can't say for sure.

Its in an example and it is worded wrong in the example so I would say its not a ruleing just a simple typo. I think they were in the mindset of summoning when writeing the rule so they just added that bit in by mistake, But if someone pointed to that and said its summoned and not placed because of this I would luagh and say no.

[Sandwich]

Three problems with your plan.

1. If you use the Belle's slow to Die 1 action to sacrifice her, she will not drop a Corpse Counter.

2. Rule of Equivalency states that you may only place one unit for your Belle's death, meaning you'd have to chose between Bete and Killjoy.

3. Although Soul Stones for Seamus are more of a commodity than a necessity, the cost of a Bete + Killjoy crew will leave you with very few units.

Killjoy has a decent survivability and Bete can be technically invulnerable but the trio of Killjoy, Bete Noir, and Seamus with the possibility of another Belle do not a long lasting crew make.

Perdita, for example, would rip you a new one quickly, very quickly.

Realize also that Black Blood would damage your units as well because they are not Neverborn.

Your best bet would be to simply drop killjoy from that list and pick up Belles and the possible addition of your Copy Cat or even Sybelle.

Though, due to the sheer massive damage output that crew would have, if you could quickly drop your opponent's master, things may go smoother.

[Q'iq'el]

2. Rule of Equivalency states that you may only place one unit for your Belle's death, meaning you'd have to chose between Bete and Killjoy.

It doesn't. Apparently the example in the clarification of the rule is mistaken. Rule of Equivalency affects only summons, not placements.

[Sandwich]

It doesn't?

Oh-ho-ho.

Still; I wouldn't do it unless there was a higher SS pool.

Maybe in a 45+ game.

[Q'iq'el]

Still; I wouldn't do it unless there was a higher SS pool.

Maybe in a 45+ game.

IMHO this notion of models being too powerful for small games doesn't really fit Malifaux very well.

There are plenty of drawbacks to taking both Killjoy and Bête in a small-scale game and the player who does so may gain local advantage, but will be hard pressed to win actual game. If anything, he does so to his own disadvantage in most Strategies.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[maelstrom808]

Which is exactly why I decided against it. I would definately still consider it in larger games, brawls and such but the standard game around here seems to be a 30SS scrap, which just doesn't leave the points for it and still have a viable crew.

Though, due to the sheer massive damage output that crew would have, if you could quickly drop your opponent's master, things may go smoother.

Well, that was the initial idea. Slingshot a belle as far as possible towards their master, then pop KJ and Bete when they wiped the floor with her. Charge those two into the master, hopefully taking them out and leaving them with a problem that had to be delt with in the middle of their crew...leaving the rest of my crew free to act as needed. The problem though is in a 30ss game, there isn't enough "rest of my crew" to make it worthwhile.

[Sandwich]

IMHO this notion of models being too powerful for small games doesn't rally fit Malifaux very well.

There are plenty of drawbacks to taking both Killjoy and Bête in a small-scale game and the player who does so may gain local advantage, but will be hard pressed to win actual game. If anything, he does so to his own disadvantage in most Strategies.

You speak the honest truth here. I suppose its entirely situational as to the viability of taking both of these models in lieu of others.

[Sandwich]

Which is exactly why I decided against it. I would definately still consider it in larger games, brawls and such but the standard game around here seems to be a 30SS scrap, which just doesn't leave the points for it and still have a viable crew.

Well, that was the initial idea. Slingshot a belle as far as possible towards their master, then pop KJ and Bete when they wiped the floor with her. Charge those two into the master, hopefully taking them out and leaving them with a problem that had to be delt with in the middle of their crew...leaving the rest of my crew free to act as needed. The problem though is in a 30ss game, there isn't enough "rest of my crew" to make it worthwhile.

Well, if you had slaughter and took Assassinate and possibly Bodyguard...