Neverborn Kidnap scheme VS Kirrai

[tadaka]

This scheme is seriously messed up from the new book VS Kirrai. Picking 3 of her starting seishin just gives them 2 points. Its stupid easy they don't have to announce it and still get 2 points. Any one else think this mission should not allow insignificant models.

[notmikehill]

Kidnap has to be a master or henchman targetted...

[tadaka]

Not in the new book 3 minions

[notmikehill]

hmm interesting, I just read that one. That's a little ridiculous. Most Strategies and Schemes usually don't allow Insignificant models to be part of them, so this might be the same case.

[Satyrwyld]

Don't start with three seishin? The same can be done to any other resser with three canine remains (often used for spare parts for the models truly desired), a Lilith crew with three tots (no Grow for you!), Gremlin crews in general, Vik crews with three Ronin, etc etc etc.

[tadaka]

Even if you were to start with 2 or 1 Kirrai does not work with out them and because of them its stupid easy to get this for 2 points. Asking for non insignificant models is not the same as saying they cant pick 3 fraking ronin that's 15 points of models they have to take out. if they had to announce for 2 points it would be fine i could protect one.

Edited September 5, 2010 by tadaka

[Satyrwyld]

In my (admittedly limited) experience with Kirai, seishin fall from the heavens like rain. There's a reason half her abilities involve them popping like soap bubbles. If you're that worried about 2 VP, start with less than three and make him work for it.

And no, you don't have to kill 15 points of models to get rid of three ronin in a Vik crew. You just need to convince him 2ss (or another Vik, although that's harder than killing the Ronin outright) are worth more than a wounded ronin that may or may not be the target of an unannounced scheme.

As a primary Neverborn player, you've now convinced me I need to start loudly talking about how great Kidnap is before each game, and then not announce Hold Out or Bodyguard or something and watch the delicious paranoia...

[tadaka]

I think that's a great and smart tactic. I like solid tactics.

notmikehill glad some one agrees with me

Edited September 5, 2010 by tadaka

[Q'iq'el]

hmm interesting, I just read that one. That's a little ridiculous. Most Strategies and Schemes usually don't allow Insignificant models to be part of them, so this might be the same case.

Seems many of the new Strategies and Schemes allow Insignificant models to score or count for the scoring purpose. Only some of them contain the line preventing Insignificant models from counting, which is the main indication of this.

What is most interesting is that insignificant models gain on value somewhat and abilities making opponent's models insignificant become less powerful.

[notmikehill]

What is most interesting is that insignificant models gain on value somewhat and abilities making opponent's models insignificant become less powerful.

Yeah looking at some of these new Strats and Schemes you have Treasure Hunt being able to be used by insignificant models, Kidnap, Grudge, and Eye for an Eye... Curiouser and Curiouser...

[dakrulz55]

yes well its not as bad as levi's scheme where his is almost garenteed 2 pts.

[tadaka]

Eh perhaps Insignificant models should not be able to work for any of the goals. They are after all Insignificant.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I've decided schemes being too good or too hard isn't a big deal since it seems that to be most tourneys allow each scheme to be used only once.

I started to be annoyed by it in casual play and fix it I've made a deal with my most frequent opponents that we'll keep track of schemes used and use each scheme once every four games. You could try doing the same either with individual players or as a general rule for a group.

[alemon]

Could someone post the rules for Kidnap up please? We had the same complaints over the new slaughter rules, over sacrificing models and how it screwed ressers over, when the book made it clear it only counted when YOU sacrificed them.

[Berman]

It says at the beggining of the strategy and scheme section that insignificant models do not count tword any of them unless stated otherwise. Thus no using kidnap vs the starting sheshin models.

At least that's how I read it.

[alemon]

It says at the beggining of the strategy and scheme section that insignificant models do not count tword any of them unless stated otherwise. Thus no using kidnap vs the starting sheshin models.

At least that's how I read it.

oh, cool

[Q'iq'el]

It says at the beggining of the strategy and scheme section that insignificant models do not count tword any of them unless stated otherwise. Thus no using kidnap vs the starting sheshin models.

At least that's how I read it.

Not in Book 2. The new Strategies and Schemes do not have such a caveat - that's the reason for this discussion.

In Book 2 Scenarios and Schemes has Special section in its description and if the Insignificant models cannot complete them, it's mentioned there.

It so happens that new Kidnap doesn't contain such a restriction.

Edit: Actually in Book 1 the restrictions for Insignificant models do not counting towards the strategy/scheme are on page 21, in the description of this Characteristic.

Encounters in Book 2 do not contain any specific change to this rule, but they clearly differentiate between Strategies and Schemes which state that Insignificant models cannot complete them and those that don't.

Sure, it seems like it is another section in need of a formal ruling, but I think the intention to allow Insignificant models to count is rather clear.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[ProdigalPunk]

Don't start with three seishin? The same can be done to any other resser with three canine remains (often used for spare parts for the models truly desired), a Lilith crew with three tots (no Grow for you!), Gremlin crews in general, Vik crews with three Ronin, etc etc etc.

Just only kill two of them, and keep on of the originals as a only in the most dire of emergencies.

Also Grow replaces one model, so I would assume that the pick would just transfer to the new replaced model.

[Satyrwyld]

Just only kill two of them, and keep on of the originals as a only in the most dire of emergencies.

Also Grow replaces one model, so I would assume that the pick would just transfer to the new replaced model.

None of the models I listed are particularly hard to kill for a crew bent on taking out that model. A couple activations of dedicated aggression and no more ronin/canine/etc. and all of them are models that their typical master(s) usually get rid of themselves one way or another.

Now, as for the tots, the scheme specifies that "model" not being "in play." So I suppose it's a question of whether being selected for a scheme counts as an effect, and as such passes to the larger nephilim. (Assuming they aren't just ripped apart for blood counters.)

[tadaka]

I cant see any thing in the rules that would allow any sort of passing the kidnap buck to other mobs.

Yes you can keep one of the 3 selected alive if you think he selected that. Thing is If I take 3 and feed him 2 that means for 2 points he does not have to reveal he has to take out a single mob with 2 wd and 4 d. Keeping one back does not exactly make this hard to do for the neverborn.

[gregdorf]

Yeah this one seems a bit flawed, another aspect of this that I am interested in how it works is with models that can combine to become a different profile.

My thought is the way the points is earned should be changed, I would make it so that the neverborn player can earn 1 point if all three models are not in play at the end of the match, and+1 point if 2 of them are removed in Melee or with a Melee spell. Other options could be to force them to select a minimum of so many soul stones for 3 models or select the 3 most expensive models. I would be fine with just the first option, sure they are almost guaranteed 1 point but it will be very difficult for them to get the second from a master that focuses on sacrificing their own models.

[Q'iq'el]

There are other schemes that are just as easy to complete. Army of the Dead for one, has always been an auto-VP, unless the opponent worked actively against it.

And here's the point - there are crews against which Kidnap is risky. There are crews against which it is really easy. So it is supposed to be - you too can take a Scheme that is as easy to complete against Neverborn.

Picking up the right scheme is part of the skill. Schemes are not supposed, I think, to be equally difficult against everyone in every situation.

[ProdigalPunk]

None of the models I listed are particularly hard to kill for a crew bent on taking out that model. A couple activations of dedicated aggression and no more ronin/canine/etc. and all of them are models that their typical master(s) usually get rid of themselves one way or another.

Now, as for the tots, the scheme specifies that "model" not being "in play." So I suppose it's a question of whether being selected for a scheme counts as an effect, and as such passes to the larger nephilim. (Assuming they aren't just ripped apart for blood counters.)

The Seishin are a little bit tough to do this with, but if you expect that the NB player is picking your canines then run them all to the three corners of the earth. Utilize cover, make them work extra hard for those 2 VP. If they have to chase a 2 ss model around the board then that should be giving you time to do other things. The dogs in particular are ht 1 so they should be easy to hide.

Seishin can do even crueler things. You could put Kirai in the middle of the board and your two groups of Seishin on the corners. If they start making a be line for one of them just pull it back, they can return to her after any activation. Make them waste more effort then you have to waste denying them. Make them have to remember which of the seishin they picked.

This is when the game gets fun, the additional cat and mouse aspect of the whole thing.

[tadaka]

Here is my real issue with this schemes its 2 points and because you don't announce it makes it very hard to work against it. I have no problem with people cherry picking easy 1 point schemes but 2 pointers should require work.

Thing that bugs me about this is you can get 2 points for this and do nothing but pick it vs some crews. At least things like hold out only give 1 point.

There are other schemes that are just as easy to complete. Army of the Dead for one, has always been an auto-VP, unless the opponent worked actively against it.

.

[Svenn]

Not in Book 2. The new Strategies and Schemes do not have such a caveat - that's the reason for this discussion.

In Book 2 Scenarios and Schemes has Special section in its description and if the Insignificant models cannot complete them, it's mentioned there.

It so happens that new Kidnap doesn't contain such a restriction.

Edit: Actually in Book 1 the restrictions for Insignificant models do not counting towards the strategy/scheme are on page 21, in the description of this Characteristic.

Encounters in Book 2 do not contain any specific change to this rule, but they clearly differentiate between Strategies and Schemes which state that Insignificant models cannot complete them and those that don't.

Sure, it seems like it is another section in need of a formal ruling, but I think the intention to allow Insignificant models to count is rather clear.

I would have to disagree. I think it's a matter of consistency in wording, but the rules stating that insignificant models do not count towards strategies are schemes still stands, even if not specifically listed. There was no change to that rule. Sometimes it explicitly states it, but that doesn't change the definition of insignificant.