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I'm sorry. I don't play pandora, so I don't know what problem is left other than having to relink after spending your all action to siphon magic(?), but I don't know how spammable that action is to begin with.

Obviously, the solution was to change the way Link used to work. I don't think they will change it back. Having a zero action that lasts the rest of the encounter is simply too unbalancing, and might as well be a passive ability.

For the record, if they changed link back to the way it works, the decently defended mannequins will be very difficult to kill with their ability to use soulstones any activation because they no longer have to choose between keeping up or using soulstones. This will most definitely change my opinion of Performers and their showgirls, so I'm very interested in what they decide.

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It would be cool if they came up with a new ability something like this for a sorrow...

(All) Empowered Link - Target model in base contact becomes linked with this model (As per normal rules) and the target model may also choose to activate (not re-activate). A model may only be the target of an Empowered Link once per turn.

This would give the sorrow his old role back but forfeit his right to act in that turn. This would mean Pandora could still effectively activate first without the sorrow being too powerful for its cost. Then you have the option.. Use the sorrow.. or hide behind it..

Just an idea...

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Again, not a bad idea. But not the best way it could be fixed.

One of the big issues with Sorrows and the old list, is it was perfect for them and they were basically built around it functioning like it did. Having it end up any other way is a huge cheat to people who bought the models and the crew it's self. It should be restored to its old end time for sorrows.

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Please man, try to think about this a bit more and really look at the models. If you get over your own grudges against her, you will see that this change broke a very good model and badly hurt a crew that relied on them.

But the problem is that she was never 'a very good model' for the game as a whole - she was horribly broken and playing against her was pretty much pointless once her controller knew what they were doing.

The changes to Link don't 'fix' her (as in they don't make her fun for opponents, whilst still being fun for her controller), but they do, in a slightly cack-handed manner (with apologies to the designers for my comment) put the problem on hold for now.

Pandora either needs to remain a movement and WP duel queen but do a lot less damage (e.g. remove / change self-loathing) or she needs to be more catchable (shorter spell range) or, at the very least, she needs to be a little easier to hit once you do pin her down. Once any of these happen (or whatever other major fix the designers might have in mind) then link needs to be 'repaired' again.

All imo, of course (and based off of my experience, which may differ from your own).

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But the problem is that she was never 'a very good model' for the game as a whole - she was horribly broken and playing against her was pretty much pointless once her controller knew what they were doing.

The changes to Link don't 'fix' her (as in they don't make her fun for opponents, whilst still being fun for her controller), but they do, in a slightly cack-handed manner (with apologies to the designers for my comment) put the problem on hold for now.

Pandora either needs to remain a movement and WP duel queen but do a lot less damage (e.g. remove / change self-loathing) or she needs to be more catchable (shorter spell range) or, at the very least, she needs to be a little easier to hit once you do pin her down. Once any of these happen (or whatever other major fix the designers might have in mind) then link needs to be 'repaired' again.

All imo, of course (and based off of my experience, which may differ from your own).

For starters, she doesn't really do that much damage to begin with. Definitely an attrition master. Consider all the 8-wound stuff out there. On her own, Pandi will need the model to fail 8 Wp duels, so you're looking at 2 turns, probably more in many cases. Self-Loathing is her only heavy-hitting spell, and against models with low damage output, even that is debatable.

As to her being hittable once you catch her, once you get around the whole "Wp test to target" thing, she's Df 2. TWO!!! An attacker would literally have to flip the Black Joker to miss, and is the Pandi player flips horribly, even that's no gaurantee.

The only thing that makes Pandi dangerous is that her starter box crew is capable of forcing a LOT of wp tests. Karn's whole argument here revolves around the fact that the Link cuddle on Sorrows more or less forces Pandi to take non-Sorrows, READ: Models that have less Wp-duel causing effects. It also limits the Sorrows' best oppurtunity to force Wp duels, Siphon Magic.

Re-read my original post in this thread. The whole Siphon Magic strategy was totally dependant on Link working the way it did pre-cuddle. The Link cuddle doesn't kill it altogether in principle. A ruling has been made that Siphon and Life Leech only require the Sorrow to be Base to base, although it doesn't appear in any official errata unless it's be amended in the last few days, meaning I have to print out that particular page so that I can use it as such.

Pandi does very few things very well; the Link cuddle means she gets less reliable help.

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The only thing that makes Pandi dangerous is that her starter box crew is capable of forcing a LOT of wp tests. Karn's whole argument here revolves around the fact that the Link cuddle on Sorrows more or less forces Pandi to take non-Sorrows, READ: Models that have less Wp-duel causing effects. It also limits the Sorrows' best oppurtunity to force Wp duels, Siphon Magic.

Do you mean non-woes? Because there are a lot of new woes now, and even some non-woes that can force a lot of WP duels. Even without this link-cuddle, I plan on seeing many new crew variations for pandora.

My proposed compromise would fix the two problems you mentioned in this paragraph ("forcing" pandora crews to take models other than sorrows--which IMO makes for more variety in crews-- and limiting the Sorrow's Siphon Magic) while still being fair to other crews and other (0) action abilities.

Why so much tension over a 3-point model anyway? Game producers change model rules all the time, making some strategies viable while others not.

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For starters, she doesn't really do that much damage to begin with. Definitely an attrition master. Consider all the 8-wound stuff out there. On her own, Pandi will need the model to fail 8 Wp duels, so you're looking at 2 turns, probably more in many cases. Self-Loathing is her only heavy-hitting spell, and against models with low damage output, even that is debatable.

She's only an attrition master if she's facing low damage models, and if that's the case then she's got half the game wrapped up already. Against any high output model (and most people are going to bring something to try and take out the rest of her crew) she destroys them. Utterly. And let's not forget that she has a WP advantage against most other models and is the one who decides when to make her move - wait until you've got the cards you need then swoop in and take out. It really is that easy, I've seen it over and over again.

As to her being hittable once you catch her, once you get around the whole "Wp test to target" thing, she's Df 2. TWO!!! An attacker would literally have to flip the Black Joker to miss, and is the Pandi player flips horribly, even that's no gaurantee.

Yeah, once you "get around the whole [WP] thing". So, firstly, catch her (which is no mean feat given her speed around the board) and then, at a disadvantage, beat her in a WP duel (for most models you can have the red joker and not guarantee anything, especially once you take into account the amount of Soul Stones she starts with). And if you fail then end your activation and die. Simple.

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Do you mean non-woes? Because there are a lot of new woes now, and even some non-woes that can force a lot of WP duels. Even without this link-cuddle, I plan on seeing many new crew variations for pandora.

Why so much tension over a 3-point model anyway? Game producers change model rules all the time, making some strategies viable while others not.

For someone (such as myself) who just bought into this game by buying her crew starter box, this seems like a really poor suggestion. I'm only going to continue investing money in a game I enjoy if I get enjoyment out of my starter. You don't want to say to new players they should shelve half their first batch of figures almost immediately in the name of variety.

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But the problem is that she was never 'a very good model' for the game as a whole - she was horribly broken and playing against her was pretty much pointless once her controller knew what they were doing.

The changes to Link don't 'fix' her (as in they don't make her fun for opponents, whilst still being fun for her controller), but they do, in a slightly cack-handed manner (with apologies to the designers for my comment) put the problem on hold for now.

Pandora either needs to remain a movement and WP duel queen but do a lot less damage (e.g. remove / change self-loathing) or she needs to be more catchable (shorter spell range) or, at the very least, she needs to be a little easier to hit once you do pin her down. Once any of these happen (or whatever other major fix the designers might have in mind) then link needs to be 'repaired' again.

All imo, of course (and based off of my experience, which may differ from your own).

Honestly I don't think you have a very good grasp of playing her or against her. "she was never 'a very good model' for the game as a whole".... yeah... I'm sorry man, but there are all kinds of things wrong with this. But I'm not going to go into it, thats not the point.

The point is, your incorrect. She is not bad for the game, if she is bad for the game then every master is bad for the game. Every master has their spot of power and where they shine and only people who have no played her a lot or played against her a lot state that she is over-powered. She has weakness, huge glaring ones that your chosing to ignore. One of them was how fragile she was which was slightly mitigated by the Sorrows and is now gone. She is very low damage over-all with a few abilities to spike damage, but never as high as other masters in general. With sorrows cuddled, her damage has dropped way way way down to the level of becoming a problem. She can still work (as I have stated) but it became a lot harder and a lot less fun. It's unbalanced now and not fun for the Pandora player any more.

I'm starting to go into the rant again... I'm going to stop here and let the past speak for it's self and the numerous people supporting that sorrows are cuddled and need a fix and that they should have the original end point for link restored to them.

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Do you mean non-woes? Because there are a lot of new woes now, and even some non-woes that can force a lot of WP duels. Even without this link-cuddle, I plan on seeing many new crew variations for pandora.

My proposed compromise would fix the two problems you mentioned in this paragraph ("forcing" pandora crews to take models other than sorrows--which IMO makes for more variety in crews-- and limiting the Sorrow's Siphon Magic) while still being fair to other crews and other (0) action abilities.

Why so much tension over a 3-point model anyway? Game producers change model rules all the time, making some strategies viable while others not.

Force them to take other models.... when those words pop up something is always wrong. We should never be forced to take models, we should be encouraged to. The glaring cuddle to them ruined a basic strategy for a master that was built with so much synergy and reliance on other models in her crew. Her abilities and web of effects were a near work of art, they were that well designed and balanced. We always took other models, but sorrows were a staple and designed to be such. Would you take Levy without Alyce? (not often) Lilith without Nephilim (nearly never), Perdita without another Ortega (rarely). On and on. For Pandora it was, would you take Pandora without Sorrows? Nearly never.

Alemon, I don't think you understand what the sorrows did and meant to pandora. Read my previous posts and others posts. Its been said over and over what they meant to her, how much this cuddle hurt her, and why they are so important. Please, go back and read them. The reasons are all here.

Btw, yes changes happen here and there. But cuddles are not acceptable. When something is cuddled, and a whole crew is effected, people should stand up and shout that it needs to be fixed. It does. 100% this needs to be fixed. How would you feel if your favorite master had a key part of their strategy cuddled? Not very good I would guess.

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For someone (such as myself) who just bought into this game by buying her crew starter box, this seems like a really poor suggestion. I'm only going to continue investing money in a game I enjoy if I get enjoyment out of my starter. You don't want to say to new players they should shelve half their first batch of figures almost immediately in the name of variety.

I would say ask your LGS to play without the Link change. That is the best suggestion I can give right now because otherwise you've got badly cuddled models. The link change is flawed and the sorrows are cuddled, so play to have fun and play without the change entirely and hope and put your support up here for the original end to link being restored to sorrows.

Untill then, play to have fun and try not to sweat it to much. Show your support to change it back because the more support we have, the better chance we have of getting it fixed. It's being worked on, just try to hold tight and keep showing your support for the fix here.

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I'm going to take this thread into a new direction, seeing as how the debate over Link between Sorrow enthusiasts and Pandi-haters is getting nowhere.

First off, I'm going to celebrate the fact that with Link more or less useless, I don't ever have to worry about Linking my Sorrows to Pandi again-ever- thus eliminating the cheap easy targets for laying down blast templates that totally bypass Expose Fears. No more blast damage for the WIN!!!

:reddy:

Suck it, Criid!!! (et al)

As for the rest of it, I can't keep up the neccesary level of sarcasm to continue, so for my fellow Sorrow enthusiasts (both of you) CHEERS!

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I think no its just a case of being more careful with Pandora and having her start the turn in a position where she does not HAVE to activate first. If thats the case then linking a sorrow to her isnt going to be a difficult thing to do.

Whilst waiting for a decision players should place sorrows out in front of her and try and block LoS. Then have the sorrow closest to her link and be ready for her activation. Pandora can then move forward as usual and bring her powers to bear. The frontmost sorrows are then on hand to activate later in the turn to link and re-establish her protection should the other get killed.

I do think that as it stands the sorrow needs a fix but I dont think this has broken Pandora or stopped her functioning as a dangerous master. In the right hands she can still turn a game on its head and bring victory all by herself. I still use Pandora alot and I still win games.. in fact I have never lost one with her as my master.

I agree with Karn that we as players should not be forced to choose models but having spent the last week or so playing with the new link rule I think it signifies more of a change of style than a "OMFG you broke my master!"

One thing I will add is that I am sick of people saying how overpowered Pandora is. Shes very much a glass hammer and bolder more aggressive players who know how to use her will definately get the best from her. Those of you who keep getting beat by her need to really do your homework. She really is easy to kill if you engineer it correctly.

Try getting Perdita in range and then see how long she lasts...

Not long I can tell you..

If a fix comes it comes.. But I have playtested this new link for a week and although I am disappointed that my many sorrows will probably not all be used in one game anymore. I think it has far from broken the master I love so dearly..

Just my view on things..

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Honestly I don't think you have a very good grasp of playing her or against her. "she was never 'a very good model' for the game as a whole".... yeah... I'm sorry man, but there are all kinds of things wrong with this. But I'm not going to go into it, thats not the point.

I don't agree with you so I don't have a good grasp of how she works? Good argument, well done.

I think I'll stay out of this now, seeing as you're clearly working an agenda rather than thinking about the game as a whole this really can't go anywhere, can it?

Just for the record though, if you play Pandora well, you can kill a high damage output model (e.g a Steamborg) in one turn from 18 inches away and then put yourself back out of harm's way with no fear of any retribution. If you really think that's good for the game as whole, that's a concern.

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I don't agree with you so I don't have a good grasp of how she works? Good argument, well done.

I think I'll stay out of this now, seeing as you're clearly working an agenda rather than thinking about the game as a whole this really can't go anywhere, can it?

Just for the record though, if you play Pandora well, you can kill a high damage output model (e.g a Steamborg) in one turn from 18 inches away and then put yourself back out of harm's way with no fear of any retribution. If you really think that's good for the game as whole, that's a concern.

Very much an exaggeration by the way and no more lethal then the other masters who make damage their priority.

The reason I said that is because of your statement that she was never very good for the game. Thats a pretty big statement and to my eyes, it shows a person who is galvanized against her because they've lost to her many times and doesn't understand the subtle nuances to her success. She is 100% beatable and with a little effort, she can be taken down. Don't forget, this game is not 100% about beating the crap out of the other person. Pandora is good at doing this, it's basically all she does besides unreliable movement. So I said it, because you don't seem to understand her meta and that she is beatable and not as crazy powerful as you make her out to be. Not because I disagree with you, I didn't say that.

My agenda, is what is best for the game and for the crew more specifically. She was a very solid master with an extremely complex play style and a reliance on synergy not seen on the other masters in most cases. She traded all this power for extreme vulnerability if you can penetrate her web of effects and get a solid hit on her. But she was the pinnacle of the non-normal play style master. Using non-standard methods to achieve her goals. So the change to Sorrows has hurt this style of play by weakening her damage output and her survivability in several ways. So yes, I do have the best for the game and the crew in mind when I'm saying this. I never saw her as an over-powered master in needing of any Cuddling instead only needing a few tweaks to stop her from pacify/inciting her own models to move around.

Pandora has always been hard to deal with and you have to come ready to fight her to deal with her. But as almost everyone has said over and over again, she is a glass cannon. If you play her a lot, you realize her most glaring weakness is the requirement to pass and win nearly every single Wp duel she makes during a turn. Seariously, generally failing 1 can screw you up so badly, you will probably die next turn. For example, if she is pacify/incite chaining forward, often time if she fails one of them, she is SOL as she is stuck in the open now. Or if Project Emotions get resisted, she is probably going to be in trouble (especially against the Ortega's and other stubborn/high wp models). Her Wp is 7, it's only slightly better then average and there are a fair amount of models out there that are as high or higher or can get higher.

Btw, most masters are this powerful in some way. Ever try to wade through Nicodeme's zombies without AE's? Ever tried to go at Lady J in melee only to have her cut your head off? Ever tried to fight Sonnia when your only method for serious damage is spells? Ever gotten close to Perdita? Ever fallen into Levy's LOS and seen what he can do to 1 model? Each master is powerful in some way or another. Pandora is a glass cannon, no stronger then the other masters in the game, she just shows her strength through a different method. She is one of the hardest to play well and it takes a lot of practice to master her style of play. She is very very reliant on her crew for helping her out and keeping her alive and Sorrows cuddle is a big blow to her.

Edited by karn987
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Yeah, once you "get around the whole [WP] thing". So, firstly, catch her (which is no mean feat given her speed around the board) and then, at a disadvantage, beat her in a WP duel (for most models you can have the red joker and not guarantee anything, especially once you take into account the amount of Soul Stones she starts with). And if you fail then end your activation and die. Simple.

I'm sorry, but i have only two words to say: Blast Damage. As some of the others said, Pandora is not at all unbeatable monster, you just need to think about your movements a bit. Pandora still is a potent master even without the sorrows (actually, in book 2, there are models forcing even more wp duels, and i guess they can have quite good synergy with Pandora), but the Sorrows are the model we're talking about. I like the model as such, i'll still take one (even though it's wasted soulstones), because i like the sculpt & paint, but i have dozens of models to choose from, and i already am in love with malifaux.

Imagine, that you're a new player, who buys the Pandora box, and you are about to start your first game. Now the guy on the other side of the table just comes to you, and explains, that half of the models in the box is basicaly useless - not a good way to start IMHO. The only worst box out there is the Nicodem box IMHO.

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I'm going to take this thread into a new direction, seeing as how the debate over Link between Sorrow enthusiasts and Pandi-haters is getting nowhere.

First off, I'm going to celebrate the fact that with Link more or less useless, I don't ever have to worry about Linking my Sorrows to Pandi again-ever- thus eliminating the cheap easy targets for laying down blast templates that totally bypass Expose Fears. No more blast damage for the WIN!!!

:reddy:

Suck it, Criid!!! (et al)

As for the rest of it, I can't keep up the neccesary level of sarcasm to continue, so for my fellow Sorrow enthusiasts (both of you) CHEERS!

Heh you are right man, that is a positive note!

I would really love to stay positive on this... I've tried really hard to find the positive side of this. But I just can't ><. I wish I could..... *sighs* Ah well.

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Shortly after I started playing, someone posted in a thread "Why spend 3 ss on a model whose only purpose is to die, when you could spend them on something that could do something before it died?" While I don't necessarily agree with this assessment (pre-cuddle, anyway) it got me thinking, and I tried a few alternative, no-sorrow lists. No one has ever managed to kill my Pandora (granted, I haven't played vs. Perdita using her, but I'm not sure how much sorrows would have helped if I had). So ignoring what this means for Pandora, since this thread is about the sorrows, this means:

Sorrows' "primary" purpose is at least partially pointless.

Their secondary purposes are made much harder given this cuddle, so why take them? After a little playtesting, I'd prefer 3 alps to 3 sorrows, hands down, and alps aren't even Woes. Honestly, the only worthwhile combo I can think of with Sorrows right now involves a doppelganger borrowing unhealthy relationship, and then I'd only need one.

Compare to other starter triple-sets: Criid gets witchlings, Lady J gets death marshals, Nico gets punk zombies, Seamus gets belles, Lilith gets tots, Zoraida gets silurids, and Som'er gets gremlins. All of these have clear and useful synergy that makes having three on hand worth it. Sorrows are more baggage than benefit when compared to Teddy (harder to kill than three sorrows), Kade (harder to hit than two sorrows), Candy (heals, harder to kill), or Doppelganger (heals, more versatile than three sorrows). So now we're past a 35ss game before I'd even consider sorrows. That says a lot to me about the change in the model's power level right there.

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And.. Douglas McMourning gets Nurses.

Just because it's in the starter doesn't mean that they have to be awesome.

In all fairness, McMourning can summon more support. Yes, it means having more packages of models on hand, but he can still do it. Pandora doesn't have that option.

That said, there are situations, and not horribly convoluted situations, where a nurse or two might be useful. Sorrows, much less so. Again, when equal value models that were designed to synergize with another master (I'm looking at you, alps!) are more desirable than the models designed to go with that master, something is every wrong.

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Yes but they weren't great and then cuddled to junk. There is a huge difference, plus its not like they were designed to be a key part of his play style and strategy or anything.

There's a really simple test to see if a model is OTT or not. From my experience it applies to almost every single game I've ever seen.

It works like that:

1. Do I want to spam the model?

a) no, I want to take minimal amount needed for access to its abilities.

B) no, I don't want it at all.

c) yes, full crew of Sorrows and three more on top of that!

If the answer is a), they are OK. If the answer is B), they are too weak, if answer is c), they are too good indeed.

Since I've seen people buying 6 or even 9 Sorrows before, I'm pretty sure they used to be in category c).

They clearly should be in category a) now, but if they ended up being in B) (i.e. too weak) it doesn't mean everything has to be reversed and returned to how it used to be before.

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Well they did double cuddle it by making the link expire at the end of the turn and limit one linked model at a time. With the crazy Pandora shenanigans before I saw the cuddle needed, but they could have made it a limit of one linked model only without having it expire at the end of the turn.

That would have been enough to end the swooshing "I kill all" and still keep the Sorrows effective.

Just pointing out the obvious that is hard to argue.

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I think they changed it because of how ridiculous it is to have a zero action that lasts the rest of the encounter allowing a model to use its action points on attacks instead of moving into position on a three point model.

I could be wrong, but from reading the old rules for link it didn't look like you could tow a model with a sorrow. It states that if a linked model moved, push this model into base contact. Not the other way around.

Then again I never really used them before, so my understanding of their use is limited. This still doesn't stop me from feeling like I may never use them now even though they are half painted. :doh:

Edited by Murphy'sLawyer
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