Woe is me...

[Satyrwyld]

I don't really ever see Pandora played, and all I keep hearing is what needs to happen, but I am not sure why.

Sorrows have a variety of abilities, all of which require them to be in base contact with (or linked to) a given model. The main offender is Siphon Magic, which is an (All) action that requires this. The way Link is currently set up, they're limited to being able to do something about every other turn under most circumstances.

[Hesky]

Okay guys... forgive my stupidity but nowhere in the Errata can I find that it says Link ends in the closing phase.. Could somebody point out exactly where for me please?

This worries me as I have 9 Sorrow Models as Pandora is my favourite Master and sorrows are her bread and butter.

Currently with the Errata changes my card says Siphon Magic needs a linked model and Life Leech comes into effect at the beginning of its activation.

This means that two entries on this card are now completely useless.. I have read this entire thread and I have to say I am sorely disappointed with Wyrd's lack of commentary on it. I can see that the Mannequin's entry for link has been reworded in Rising Powers but I am yet to read a rule that says abilities or spells must function the same way for different models..

Since the Marshalls are not very forthcoming with this thread perhaps someone could point me in the right direction. I will be very distressed indeed if I find my 9 painted sorrows have to sit in little foam booths for the rest of time...

Very distressed indeed...

[Joza]

First Errata:

Timing (p.13)

Add to the end of the second paragraph in Timing: “If an

effect does not have an end listed, it ends during the Resolve

Effects step of the Closing Phase.”

Extra Errata:

Grave Spirit, Essence of Power, Sorrows

(0) Link

Description should read as: This model and target model in base contact with it are Linked. After the model this model is Linked to completes a Walk Action or ends its activation, Push this model into base contact with the Linked model. A model can be Linked to one model at any time.

In combination, this effectively means, that Link ends in the Closing Phase

[Hesky]

Wow...

Thanks for your help there.. This really does kill off my sorrows. Life Leech and Siphon Magic are now impossible to use. I guess the only use for them now is to Kamikaze them forwards in an attempt to force my opponent to activate out of turn.

I guess its one way to guarantee that we buy Insidious Madness models hahaha

I will have to find other ways of using Pandora. I am not willing to shelf her just yet. But the legion of Sorrows without any sorrows is a sad state of affairs..

[Joza]

Well, to be honest, i'd rather not be able to help you :-/ I really loved the sorrows too (as a model, at least), but now they do not make their way into my list. For now, me and my friends do not incorporate the extra errata (partly because the "which errata is right" thread, where someone claimed, that rules marshall said "use the old errata instead of the extra errata" as a reply on some colision in terms [i'm not really sure what it was right now]), and I still hope, that the link will get re-worded for Sorrows in the official document...

[Krysno]

Some additional information regarding Siphon Magic and Life Leech was posted in this thread:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13697&highlight=siphon+magic+sorrow&page=2

Looks like they work with Base to Base Contact now, and no longer require the model to be linked.

[Hesky]

Looks like they work with Base to Base Contact now, and no longer require the model to be linked.

Not all doom and gloom then. I think for the sake of loyalty to my sorrows I will try using them as much as possible in my Malifaux free-for-all tomorrow with friends. There must be something logical about it all if they have accounted for the changes in that way.

[Krysno]

That's been my approach, Hesky. Might have to try a game without the use of Link at all. We'll see where that puts the Sorrows...

[alemon]

I'm not a pandora player, but after reading the change to siphon magic I might have to try a little shennanigans next time my friends and I get together

[Satyrwyld]

I used Sorrows extensively before I learned of the errata, limped along with them for a bit after, then dropped them altogether for more bulky expensive models. My typical 35 list has Pandora, Poltergeist, Candy, Kade, Doppelganger and Teddy, and I find any one of those models contributes more in a game than their equal weight in Sorrows. They definitely need something, be it Significant to contribute better to strategies and schemes, Spirit to have some survivability as they try to life leech (this is more of an intuitive wysiwyg thing for me- their lower half is made of smoke!), the old Link rule back, or something. As it stands, I don't foresee using them much at all, as in larger games I'd rather bump up with another beatstick, and in smaller games I'd swap out for tots or silurids before I went for sorrows - they simply don't contribute as well as anything else in the Neverborn right now.

[Rob1981]

This does need some Wyrd-style clarification as (to my understanding) it makes the Sorrows next to useless and also makes Mannequins less useful as well (they only get one AP if memory serves so they have the same problem) so Link will only serve as a kind of Mannequin / Sorrow bus to shuffle them around the board. At least the Mannequins can be useful for Disappearing Act

[notmikehill]

This does need some Wyrd-style clarification as (to my understanding) it makes the Sorrows next to useless and also makes Mannequins less useful as well (they only get one AP if memory serves so they have the same problem) so Link will only serve as a kind of Mannequin / Sorrow bus to shuffle them around the board. At least the Mannequins can be useful for Disappearing Act

The Mannequins have Companion (Showgirl), so it isn't too much of a gimp on their side of the problem.

Now after the change to Siphon Magic, I assume the Empower ability on the Essence of Power works the same way? Rather than being linked to the target it's base contact? I only ask this because in any other terms it would make the ability useless to have to activate the model first, link it to the master, then use the master just for the empowerment bonus, when the totem can be companioned.

[karn987]

Just fix link's end time on the Sorrows and all this goes away and people are happy again. That's all I think we really need or should be asking for. This change is wrong because of the huge impact it has on the Sorrows and at least for them, should be fixed.

[Krysno]

I can't remember which thread I saw this in, but someone suggested that Link could remain active until the end of the Linked model's next activation. I think that it could be a reasonable compromise. Link would still have to be reactivated each turn, but you wouldn't have to push the Sorrows to the front of the activation line to get any sort of usefulness out of the ability...

[alemon]

I can't remember which thread I saw this in, but someone suggested that Link could remain active until the end of the Linked model's next activation. I think that it could be a reasonable compromise. Link would still have to be reactivated each turn, but you wouldn't have to push the Sorrows to the front of the activation line to get any sort of usefulness out of the ability...

That was in this thread. I posted this idea and it was glossed over.

[Lars de Grey]

Even now that sorrows can use LL and SM when they are in base contact. There are other models which fit in much better now (rising powers)!

I was just thinking about a game turn and the assignment of a sorrow (to serve and protect ^^).

Lets say you got the Legion of Sorrow Box and you are in turn 2 or 3 (so both players moving to the middle of the board). Since the sorrows have to be in btb with a model to fulfill their assignment, you are not allowed to activate neither the sorrow nor Pandora before something is in reach. That leaves Kade and Candy the only models to activate. But they are much better, when the enemy got debuffed before.

Which model you want to activate first?

That brings me to the point that Pandora´s gameplay becomes more static than it was before. How much fun is that for you and your opponent?

And as someone wrote before "What is a Legion of Sorrows without Sorrows?"

[karn987]

Even now that sorrows can use LL and SM when they are in base contact. There are other models which fit in much better now (rising powers)!

I was just thinking about a game turn and the assignment of a sorrow (to serve and protect ^^).

Lets say you got the Legion of Sorrow Box and you are in turn 2 or 3 (so both players moving to the middle of the board). Since the sorrows have to be in btb with a model to fulfill their assignment, you are not allowed to activate neither the sorrow nor Pandora before something is in reach. That leaves Kade and Candy the only models to activate. But they are much better, when the enemy got debuffed before.

Which model you want to activate first?

That brings me to the point that Pandora´s gameplay becomes more static than it was before. How much fun is that for you and your opponent?

And as someone wrote before "What is a Legion of Sorrows without Sorrows?"

Exactly! You sir, can have a cookie.

[Amarel]

That brings me to the point that Pandora´s gameplay becomes more static than it was before. How much fun is that for you and your opponent?

If it means that I can actually have a chance to hit her back before she kills my entire crew with relative impunity, then the answer is - a lot more .

[Lars de Grey]

If it means that I can actually have a chance to hit her back before she kills my entire crew with relative impunity, then the answer is - a lot more .

May i offer a possible conversation to think about it.

Opponent: I moved my xyz and now end my activation.

Me: I activate Kade and pass and pass.

Opponent: I activate zyx move, cast a spell and end my activation.

Me: I activate Candy and pass and pass.

Opponent: I activate yzx move, shoot and end my turn.

Me: I activate a Sorrow and ... Wait, still nothing in range! I pass and pass.

...

Sounds good to you? Not for me!

I don´t care if i kill your crew one round later. I am just bored, that any action i would take, would give you an advantage. So i wait until the circumstances favour me! :gunman:

And remember we are still talking about Pandora with Kade, Candy and three sorrows.

In a setup without sorrows i would act different.

E.g.

Me: I activate my Teddy and ripp you to pieces!

[Amarel]

May i offer a possible conversation to think about it.

Opponent: I moved my xyz and now end my activation.

Me: I activate Kade and pass and pass.

Opponent: I activate zyx move, cast a spell and end my activation.

Me: I activate Candy and pass and pass.

Opponent: I activate yzx move, shoot and end my turn.

Me: I activate a Sorrow and ... Wait, still nothing in range! I pass and pass.

...

Sounds good to you? Not for me!

I don't think pretending that that is all you can do creates a compelling discussion point.

Against Pandora this is how games often go for me:

Pandora is going to Pacify around the board killing things with Self-Loathing (chucking in Pity if needed) and then Pacifying back to complete safety. While she's doing this Kade and Candy tend to be working their way around the board to set up danger zones for the opponent to avoid (stay here and get Pandora'd, go there and get charged by Kade and / or Candy) or to help with Objective grabbing, while the Sorrows split between linking to Pandora 'just in case' and moving to a good position to, again, force action from the opponent.

Is she fun to play against? Not at all, never has been. But she's effective and fun to play as (opponent's enjoyment excepted).

[Lars de Grey]

I don't think pretending that that is all you can do creates a compelling discussion point.

Against Pandora this is how games often go for me:

Pandora is going to Pacify around the board killing things with Self-Loathing (chucking in Pity if needed) and then Pacifying back to complete safety. ...

First, you are right. I can do better. But it´s like someone broke your toy. You won´t use that much any more.

Still remember we are talking about an interaction. So far i would be safe moving around the board, since the sorrow were linked.

Now i have to activate the sorrows first to either link 'em or to take an action. Their actions are limited, since i save the good cards for Pandora, Candy and Kade. In my opinion they are also dependent on Pandora. That means she has to activate first in order to debuff the enemy. But if you do so, it might leave you in open field.

Most of the times i spend the good cards for spells. Pacify or Incite are just the add on, because it´s your 0 and you can do it.

In the last game it left me close to some arachnids, cause i lost one pacify wp. Sometimes you just can´t cheat fate!

[karn987]

I don't think pretending that that is all you can do creates a compelling discussion point.

Against Pandora this is how games often go for me:

Pandora is going to Pacify around the board killing things with Self-Loathing (chucking in Pity if needed) and then Pacifying back to complete safety. While she's doing this Kade and Candy tend to be working their way around the board to set up danger zones for the opponent to avoid (stay here and get Pandora'd, go there and get charged by Kade and / or Candy) or to help with Objective grabbing, while the Sorrows split between linking to Pandora 'just in case' and moving to a good position to, again, force action from the opponent.

Is she fun to play against? Not at all, never has been. But she's effective and fun to play as (opponent's enjoyment excepted).

You pretty much personified one of the problems facing pandora players right now. We have an obviously broken model and a hurt crew that badily needs this fix. But there are a lot of people polarized against her who wont consider what this change really means for her.

Please man, try to think about this a bit more and really look at the models. If you get over your own grudges against her, you will see that this change broke a very good model and badly hurt a crew that relied on them.

[WoeIsMe]

Ive simply had to shelve my pandora crew... its almost completely unplayable at this point if i take sorrows( which i did from an aesthetics pov).

While i dont mind having the time to learn a couple new masters pandora was the one that drew me to the game because of the way she worked on the board. now she doesnt.... its sad.

im with Karn on this a simple change of effect end time would solve all of this.

[alemon]

Why is why I'll quote:

"Link could remain active until the end of the Linked model's next activation. I think that it could be a reasonable compromise. Link would still have to be reactivated each turn, but you wouldn't have to push the Sorrows to the front of the activation line to get any sort of usefulness out of the ability..."

With this change you can stay within range and cast your spells, stay within range of the models you're attacking, and stay in base to base contact. It will stay take slightly more work and forethought than the "link and forget" rules that were in place before, but balances the abilities for the rest of the malifaux models that have link and still keep the sorrows competitive. If this doesn't seem like a good idea, please tell me why so that we can some up with another suitable compromise instead of standing on our soapboxes and yelling at each other.

[karn987]

I've read your suggestion before man and I've not said anything on it because I don't think it will be a good solution. It will half fix the problem but still leave a pretty clear problem. The best solution would be restore the old end time for Sorrows and only sorrows (if the new end time is really so critical which btw I don't think it is, I've noticed little to no effect on any other model but sorrows).

So while I think it's not terrible, I don't think it's the right one.