Colette Du Bois

[Justin]

Unless....Artificial soulstone specifically says you can't use it to summon minions. Which it might say. I don't have the book, but I have a feeling it says something like that.

Yes, it does.

[LoboStele]

Yeah, it's right in the definition in the book. Don't know if it has it that way on the card too, as I don't have them Olin front of me. But I definitely know it's in the book, cause I was reading up on the doves last night.

[alemon]

Yeah, sorry guys. My book and models are at a friend's for safekeeping, so I don't have access to the rules ATM. As I was typing that I had an inkling that I was missing something important.

It does cost two soulstones to summon a dove though, yes?

[LoboStele]

No, only one! Makes me wonder if it will be errata'd. But totally worth it if you're going to plan on spending the first round doing Soulstone Augury and using her first round hand for something useful.

[Q'iq'el]

No, only one! Makes me wonder if it will be errata'd. But totally worth it if you're going to plan on spending the first round doing Soulstone Augury and using her first round hand for something useful.

I doubt it will be changed.

Action Points are just as much of a resource as Soulstones, since you only get a limited pool of them each game.

Instead of paying 2SS, you pay 1SS and 1AP... Merely a tradeoff.

[Killionaire]

Artificial Soulstone specifically says this free soulstone cannot be used in actions that summon a model.

[LastDinosaur]

I doubt it will be changed.

Action Points are just as much of a resource as Soulstones, since you only get a limited pool of them each game.

Instead of paying 2SS, you pay 1SS and 1AP... Merely a tradeoff.

It's a (0) action to summon the dove.. Even if you reactivate you still have a spare (0) action, and it's not like you'd be using the only other (0) action available to Colette during the first turn.

I suppose it could be considered a card drain though.

[Q'iq'el]

Well, (0) actions are even more precious than AP. Even if Colette gets twice the number of activations of normal model (top), she still pays somewhere for that ability, so these (0) actions do not come free.

I'd have to dig into Colette mechanics a bit deeper before I decide for myself, but I think you cannot say 2SS is more expensive than summoning Doves during the game, without wider comparison.

For one, you are going to have to summon Doves anyway (because they are supposed to get sacrificed). At least some of your (0) actions are already assigned to that by default. Remaining (0) actions will be even more precious and there will be occasions you have to use them for something else than summoning Doves. If you pay for 3 Doves in advance, you free up some of these (0) actions. Then you can convert your regular AP and Control Cards into Soulstones if you need them.

I suspect it may be easier to summon Doves early on, so perhaps the pressure on (0) actions isn't all that high... but to say that definitively I'd have to get more practice. I keep hearing about new masters putting heat on opponent as early as turn 2 or even turn 1 - if that happens often, Colette may end up having no time to summon extra Doves.

[Goldstep]

OK... I don't know why that didn't click for me. I thought it meant you can't summon Ronin.

It makes sense now that you say it, but somehow, in my mind it was "Soulstone to cast spell, spell to summon model" Luckily, I have only the book and thus haven't cheated someone with Colette yet.

Still for planning purchases, I think we all agree that 3 doves are needed? Even if we disagree on how many in crew construction.

[LoboStele]

What do you mainly plan to use the doves for? Just magical extension? They don't have as good of a Ca as Colette, so will be harder for them to actually cast stuff.

[Goldstep]

Well, not that colette isn't better at it, but against a CA6 with soulstone use or CA4 without, Magiscians Duel is still really solid. The birds can actually reliably pound Ophelia and are nice for dealing with excess Gaki. And after that you can still sac it for the free soulstone with for something important like a killing blow from a Blinding or a Siren's call.

All theory, but the rules seem to support it pretty well.

[LastDinosaur]

They have multiple uses..

Magician's Duel can still be nasty on some enemies.

Detonation can also be good against low Df enemies.

Soulstones with for all Showgirls to use, interesting.

Trick of the Hat might also be considerable in some situations (still haven't thought out all possibilities with this one, could be used to attack anyone anywhere on the table turn one I think, but I don't think the individual Showgirls are resilient enough to have such a tactic to really be considerable).

Also @Q'iq'el: (0) actions for Colette aren't worth all that much (when you reactivate you still get another (0) action so no net loss)...

I think I'd rather have fast than a second (0) action each turn.

[Buddhanutz]

One more question to throw into the mix and I don't want to clog up the slow moving rules furom unless we can't come up with a clear answer.

Does the rule limiting a crew to two mercanaries apply to models that are recruited from within your faction? If so, this limits collette to only two showgirls, which kind of sucks.

Thanks for any comments in adcance.

[Q'iq'el]

One more question to throw into the mix and I don't want to clog up the slow moving rules furom unless we can't come up with a clear answer.

Does the rule limiting a crew to two mercanaries apply to models that are recruited from within your faction? If so, this limits collette to only two showgirls, which kind of sucks.

Thanks for any comments in adcance.

When you hire from your own faction, you don't hire them as mercenaries.

Simply speaking no master can hire out of faction, unless the model is mercenary or the master in question has some special rule allowing out-of-faction hiring. Unless specified otherwise (like in Showgirls' High Class ability) out of faction hiring costs +1SS.

Within the faction though they are regular models any master can hire for nominal price (bar some other special restrictions).

[ProdigalPunk]

One more question to throw into the mix and I don't want to clog up the slow moving rules furom unless we can't come up with a clear answer.

Does the rule limiting a crew to two mercanaries apply to models that are recruited from within your faction? If so, this limits collette to only two showgirls, which kind of sucks.

Thanks for any comments in adcance.

No you hire showgirls as arcanists and not mercenaries, so you can have as many as you want. It is basically the way the Viks work with Outcasts.

[Killionaire]

Doesn't matter much if the Doves only have CA5. If they can get off magician's duel, most targets are going to be easy prey to that. No more than 4 or 5. Even lots of Masters are going to be 5 or less, due to the -2CA vs Soulstone users.

[Justin]

I doubt it will be changed.

Action Points are just as much of a resource as Soulstones, since you only get a limited pool of them each game.

Instead of paying 2SS, you pay 1SS and 1AP... Merely a tradeoff.

BAM!

Colette can connect up to three doves at one time.

Since it is a zero action, at most she can only summon one dove per turn.

So, you can hire no doves at the start and get them cheaper, but not be at maximum dove capacity until turn three, or you can just start out with all of her doves, albeit at a higher price.

[Justin]

Also @Q'iq'el: (0) actions for Colette aren't worth all that much (when you reactivate you still get another (0) action so no net loss)...

I think I'd rather have fast than a second (0) action each turn.

Yeah, but no net gain, either.

With Colette, you essentially get one zero action every turn...just like most models. Technically she does get two, but since one will always be spent to reactivate her (or not, in which case she really does have only one) she has just as many zero actions as everyone else...one per turn.

[Killionaire]

Well Hypothetically, Colette has the potential to activate three times in a turn.

1. She activates normally. Uses Infuse Soulstone to gain reactivate.

2. She uses Reactivate up now to activate again.

3. A nearby performer dies, and grants Colette reactivate with the 'Precious' ability.

[Q'iq'el]

Well Hypothetically, Colette has the potential to activate three times in a turn.

1. She activates normally. Uses Infuse Soulstone to gain reactivate.

2. She uses Reactivate up now to activate again.

3. A nearby performer dies, and grants Colette reactivate with the 'Precious' ability.

I'm not sure if it will work that way. Reactivate is restricted to only once per turn (p46), so I think you cannot gain third reactivation from Precious.

The simple truth is (0) action is a scarce resource for everyone. All the masters have means to get extra Soulstones (albeit desperate ones) and Colette can do it without such a high cost. In such a situation I lean towards 2SS Doves being in practice cheaper than the ones you summon (and you'll have to resumon them anyway).

[LastDinosaur]

Yeah, but no net gain, either.

With Colette, you essentially get one zero action every turn...just like most models. Technically she does get two, but since one will always be spent to reactivate her (or not, in which case she really does have only one) she has just as many zero actions as everyone else...one per turn.

And that one (0) per turn suffices for at least 1~2 Doves during the first two turns of the game. Yes?

As I see things there's little reason to begin with 3 Doves at 2 SS each, which is really what I thought we discussed.

Even if you can get to the enemy on turn one with Colette I don't think it'll be wise of you to do so. Attrition doesn't seem to be her kind of game as she burns out fairly fast.

[Q'iq'el]

And that one (0) per turn suffices for at least 1~2 Doves during the first two turns of the game. Yes?

As I see things there's little reason to begin with 3 Doves at 2 SS each, which is really what I thought we discussed.

Even if you can get to the enemy on turn one with Colette I don't think it'll be wise of you to do so. Attrition doesn't seem to be her kind of game as she burns out fairly fast.

There are plenty of new masters who can easily get to Colette in turn 1 or 2 though, and that's a serious problem.

You start with too few Doves and you may find yourself with your pants down. If your opponent is slow on the other hand, you can easily make up to 4 Soulstones in these two turns (again, easier to make SS than summon doves). Granted, it costs cards, but if you don't fight yet, you don't need your whole hand, do you?

In other words it's less risk to make soulstones early in the game than to try to summon Doves.

[LastDinosaur]

Well in a quiet early game you'd both gather soulstones AND summon doves, no? Granted, it costs cards, but if you don't fight yet, you don't need your whole hand, do you?

I'd say it's safe to assume that you can summon at least two doves before you'd find yourself in a position where you'd use "Now you see it...", UNLESS you have a specific plan revolving around that exact spell. You should of course build your crew accordingly, but I'm just speaking of the majority of the lists here.

Also, to be honest, I don't see the Doves as being all that critical to how Colette works. Now I might of course be wrong in that assesment as I haven't played her yet.

I think you'd still be better off with a Gunsmith or Johan or something like that, than what the Doves bring you against a rushing enemy.

I think I lost track of what we're actually discussing here..

To summarize my opinions:

You can count on being able to summon a few doves during the first turns of the game which should save you a few SS compared to including them in your list from the beginning.

[Killionaire]

To be honest, I only summoned Doves partly through the game. They're pretty potent as missiles to deliver Magician's Duel, but their other great strength is increasing your gang's numbers. It's one of the easiest ways to summon more numbers in the whole game, and this lets you more finely control activations, if you need to delay.

[Justin]

And that one (0) per turn suffices for at least 1~2 Doves during the first two turns of the game. Yes?

As I see things there's little reason to begin with 3 Doves at 2 SS each, which is really what I thought we discussed.

Even if you can get to the enemy on turn one with Colette I don't think it'll be wise of you to do so. Attrition doesn't seem to be her kind of game as she burns out fairly fast.

Maybe you don't want colette in combat in the first 2 turns of the game...but what about the doves? They have a 10" walk and flight. You can start three, fly them across basically the entire board and start exploding them on people, and then start summoning more with your zero actions.

Dove blitz.