Colette Du Bois

[Q'iq'el]

Well, there are models Colette has no chance winning with in the long run. Flipping a stone for (1)Heal may be a good choice most of the time, but if there's another strike or two comming, you'll have to spend 2~3 SS to stay alive and then you're still stuck in melee with model(s) you have little chance of beating.

The value of flipping Red Joker on the healing flip is also greatly diminished by the fact you get only 6Wd out of it.

Instead you can use Death Defying to get into safe range. If you sacrifice a Mannequin to do it and have hand good enough, you can even hope to bring the Mannequin back and remove the tough-to-beat model on the way. SS cost will be similar, but you're in an entirely new tactical situation, why the original one was hopeless anyway.

Edited August 29, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Wodschow]

You could still cheat in a tome on the first hit. Would leave both Colette and a Showgirl alive, even if the Showgirl might soon die it's better than killing her yourself imho.

[Q'iq'el]

You could still cheat in a tome on the first hit. Would leave both Colette and a Showgirl alive, even if the Showgirl might soon die it's better than killing her yourself imho.

Yup. The awesomness of that trigger is what we've been discussing for the last few pages.

Isn't that the best Df trigger ever? It just can't fail.

[ProdigalPunk]

Yup. The awesomness of that trigger is what we've been discussing for the last few pages.

Isn't that the best Df trigger ever? It just can't fail.

Funny you should mention that. In my recent brainstorming I realized all those nice new little spirits our rezzers get can target Df or Wp. So I think Karia will be a little tricky when she summons some right on you and your Df trigger is useless. She will still be rather hard to hit, and has a lot of ways to get away, but that is one more weakness to try to exploit.

[Q'iq'el]

Funny you should mention that. In my recent brainstorming I realized all those nice new little spirits our rezzers get can target Df or Wp. So I think Karia will be a little tricky when she summons some right on you and your Df trigger is useless. She will still be rather hard to hit, and has a lot of ways to get away, but that is one more weakness to try to exploit.

Well, no Df trigger works against Wp, so it's a common trait and not particular drawback of this one. Other Df trigger Masters will be in just as bad position against Wp based attacks if not worse (considering Colette gets more out of her soulstones).

Colette does the same with her Magician's Duel attack - she turns melee fight into Ca->Ca duel, so no Df trigger will activate against it.

[Chanst]

Just wanted to add my two soulstones worth. She was the first master I picked up (just got into the game at GenCon) and I am having a blast with her. Of course I am still learning the ins and outs of the game in general, and she certainly has a lot on her card to take in.

Using her as pure support seems to work alright for me (depending on the strategy). Her ability to just gain soulstones that pretty much her whole crew has access to is pretty awesome. Cassandra with 2 Breathe Fires or a 12" threat range Magician's Duel from a dove has a lot of potential. I have played against Kirai in the games, and her list is very effective against spirits.

She can really be a powerhouse herself in melee, though that tends to burn through soulstones fast, and you have to make sure to keep at least a mannequin around a corner for her to be able to back off from a pending counterattack. Overall, I really like her, and think that she can do well in most strategies.

[alemon]

Do you need line of sight to use illusionist or Dance partner?

[LoboStele]

There was a thread in the Rules area asking about that. I don't think a Marshall ever weighed in on it, but the general consensus is that you didn't need LOS as most abilities are pretty clear when you do/don't need LOS to utilize the ability.

[ProdigalPunk]

Do you need line of sight to use illusionist or Dance partner?

If it says target, you need line of sight. If it does not mention target, and just gives a specific situation, then you do not need los.

Switch with target showgirl = need los

switch with showgirl or switch two show girls within 12" = no los

[alemon]

ah, alright. I don't have access to the book right now, but I'll make sure to look at that.

Chanst, I tend to use her for support as well and let Cassandra kick butt with the soulstones

[Chanst]

Illusionist says 'switch this model and one friendly showgirl within 18 inches', so as far as I can tell, you don't need LoS. That's the way we have been playing it.

[Q'iq'el]

Ehh... It doesn't need to mention target to require target. A friendly showgirl within 18" *IS* an individual target you have to choose and thus you do require LOS.

Spells that don't require target are auras and pulses. Spells that affect everyone within x" while not being one of the two simply have multiple targets (and targets are affected only if in LoS).

It's safer to assume you require LoS for everything except for pulses and auras.

And if you need some RAW, first sentence in "Spell Basics" on the page 62 of the rulebook. (exceptions for auras and pulses are on page 25).

Otherwise spell needs to specifically state it doesn't require LoS.

[Justin]

Ehh... It doesn't need to mention target to require target. A friendly showgirl within 18" *IS* an individual target you have to choose and thus you do require LOS.

Spells that don't require target are auras and pulses. Spells that affect everyone within x" while not being one of the two simply have multiple targets (and targets are affected only if in LoS).

It's safer to assume you require LoS for everything except for pulses and auras.

And if you need some RAW, first sentence in "Spell Basics" on the page 62 of the rulebook. (exceptions for auras and pulses are on page 25).

Otherwise spell needs to specifically state it doesn't require LoS.

I am fairly certain you are incorrect on this one.

The first line on pg 62 says, "All spells require LoS to their targets..."

This spell does not state that it does target, therefor, it does not require LoS.

I know I'm arguing semantics here, but that's how rules go sometimes.

[alemon]

Sorta reminds me of MTG rules

[Q'iq'el]

I am fairly certain you are incorrect on this one.

The first line on pg 62 says, "All spells require LoS to their targets..."

This spell does not state that it does target, therefor, it does not require LoS.

I know I'm arguing semantics here, but that's how rules go sometimes.

Won't have access to my book for the next few hours, but I'm pretty sure it is a target, when you select a model to perform an action on. I'd look for the wording in the most basic rules - where attackers, defenders and actions are defined.

The reason why auras and pulses don't have targets is that they affect area rather than models. Models that happen to be in the area suffer or profit from it, but they are not directly targeted. Spells that say they affect every model within x" are targeting directly and not affecting area, so they require LoS. Pretty much everything in this game has a target.

Either way, the basic rules for spells, on the page 62, are pretty clear you don't need LoS only if the description of the spell says so (when it isn't an Aura or Pulse).

Edited August 31, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Justin]

Won't have access to my book for the next few hours, but I'm pretty sure it is a target, when you select a model to perform an action on. I'd look for the wording in the most basic rules - where attackers, defenders and actions are defined.

The reason why auras and pulses don't have targets is that they affect area rather than models. Models that happen to be in the area suffer or profit from it, but they are not directly targeted. Spells that say they affect every model within x" are targeting directly and not affecting area, so they require LoS. Pretty much everything in this game has a target.

Either way, the basic rules for spells, on the page 62, are pretty clear you don't need LoS only if the description of the spell says so (when it isn't an Aura or Pulse).

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=160676#post160676

And now we wait.

[Q'iq'el]

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=160676#post160676

And now we wait.

I sometimes wonder, if every smallest issue really requires Marshal intervention to resolve? I understand we want to have instant clarification on important matters, but when we overload the Marshals with really simple questions, how can we expect them to focus on the really tough ones, like "what's an effect" or how the "rule of equivalency" really works.

Either way, I think this one can be extrapolated pretty convincingly from how other rules are working and from the design philosophy of the game. Just like every action affecting another model and forcing a duel is an attack, just like you are defender whenever you are forced into a duel by an action... just the same being picked up as the model affected by an ability or spell makes you a target.

What I missed however, when writing my first reply, is that neither Illusionist or Dance Partners are spells. I'm not sure if spell rules for LoS apply to other Abilities at all. Sorry for the confusion.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Q'iq'el

[Justin]

I sometimes wonder, if every smallest issue really requires Marshal intervention to resolve? I understand we want to have instant clarification on important matters, but when we overload the Marshals with really simple questions, how can we expect them to focus on the really tough ones, like "what's an effect" or how the "rule of equivalency" really works.

Either way, I think this one can be extrapolated pretty convincingly from how other rules are working and from the design philosophy of the game. Just like every action affecting another model and forcing a duel is an attack, just like you are defender whenever you are forced into a duel by an action... just the same being picked up as the model affected by an ability or spell makes you a target.

What I missed however, when writing my first reply, is that neither Illusionist or Dance Partners are spells. I'm not sure if spell rules for LoS apply to other Abilities at all. Sorry for the confusion.

I doubt it took Goblyn more than a minute to type up that reply, and obviously there was confusion about it. I think it was worth a thread. This will come up again, and now a link can simply be posted.

[Killionaire]

I think it's pretty apparent that no 'targetting' is involved at all. You merely switch this model and one friendly showgirl. That's literally the wording. Going by read as worded, this only matters if it said 'Switch this model and target friendly showgirl'.

For example, the 'Precious' ability on the Performer says 'When this model is killed, TARGET friendly showgirl within 4 of this model receives reactivate'.

This is very cut and dry people. Illusionist does not require LOS because it is not a 'target'.

[Chanst]

I think you summed it up well in the other thread, Q'iq'el. I had always been assuming abilities and spells were functioning the same way (mostly because I am a noob to this game) and I think remembering the differences between the two will help me work through many questions to come.

Even if it had required LoS, I think Illusionist is still very nice for keeping her out of trouble. I really need to try her with 3 doves at once to see how the whole 'stirke force' idea works.

[Goldstep]

I'm considering the idea that on turn 1 she might want to summon a dove instead of reactivating on the first turn. That means she would be better to only buy 2 doves -- and start with 2 more soulstones.

Or even to reactivate but spend a soulstone to create a dove with her other activation... but I need to read over cost 0's again before I know if that works. If it does work, it saves one stone... and it's not like you were using the 0 for anything else, right?

Anyone?

:mannequin

[alemon]

I've been reactivating then summoning a dove...but doesn't the spell make you discard two soulstones?

[LoboStele]

You can't use the free soulstone to summon things. But yeah, I think doing Reactivate, then summoning a dove on each activation is a solid move. They only cost 1 SS that way. So, just leave yourself with 6-8 SS to start with, and then dump two on the very first turn. For only having 6 SS left, you'd get 2 doves, as opposed to building them into the crew to start with and only having a cache of 4.

And if you really don't want to give up the soulstones for the Doves, should be easy enough on the first round to dump 2 cards for an extra SS.

[Goldstep]

You can't use the free soulstone to summon things.

Not that I don't believe you, just that I don't recall this...

Do you have a page number. Seeing it on paper helps.

Can you use the free SS for her other abilities?

Ahhhhh! My world is now on it's ear.

[alemon]

Why wouldn't you be able to use the free soulstone to summon her doves? It says discard a soulstone. That's what you do with the artificial soulstone. It's the same as any of her abilities--which you can use her artificial soulstone for.

Unless....Artificial soulstone specifically says you can't use it to summon minions. Which it might say. I don't have the book, but I have a feeling it says something like that.