Marcus = Super Obey?

[Axhead]

Hey guys, I've been lurking for a bit and have decided to jump in.

Can Marcus use Howl + Feral + Alpha to control enemy Masters, assuming all appropriate duels and spells go my way? I can't see anything in the errata, rules or posts I found via search that says I can't. There are posts saying that it is ok to do this to enemy models but it seems a bit too much to do this enemy casters... That being said I REALLY want to do it them especially since most will have a WP or 4 or less... Whose your Alpha daddy!:slap:

Once I have Alphaed an enemy model is ok to use them to harm themselves with Strikes or Spells?

Once a model is Alphaed it is considered friendly right? If so:

• Do I get any cards it should be able to draw? (Yes?)
  
• If it has use soul stones, it can use MY soulstones right? (Yes?)
  

Edited June 19, 2010 by Axhead
clarity

[Rathnard]

Alpha should work on any model with the beast characteristic, so "Beast" Masters would count.

You can't Alpha a model and then hit himself though, since models can't target themselves with their abilities/spells unless it specifically says you can.

And as far as I'm aware, a model that's been Alpha'ed will count as a friendly model for you, since you control it. Otherwise I'd want to Alpha Ramos, burn all his own soulstones and start detonating his own spiders.

You could, however, use spells or attacks with a blast effect and then 'accidentally' hit the model you're controlling (eg. Rasputina with decembers curse, Sonnia with flame burst).

The problem is that Alpha is a (2) spell, so if you cast it, you can't use howl or any other (1) ability in the same turn unless you find a way to give him fast or casting expert (neither of which is currently possible IIRC).

IMO the best way to cast Alpha is to (0) Wild Heart for Eagle and either Tiger or Serpent, then (0) Tiger/Serpent to hit your target model (with a from eagle). Assuming you connect, this will trigger primal reaction (becomes a beast!) and allow you to (2) Alpha the model as your last action.

Personally, I think Alpha is a great spell but also quite hard to get off. Unlike Obey, there's two opposed duels (one needing a :masks: ) and a simple duel, plus possibly a card to discard (if you use Serpent) before you get it off, AND it takes up Marcus's entire action, possibly leaving him vulnerable to a counter attack.

On the other hand, taking control of a model (and preventing your opponent from using it!) for an entire turn is very powerful. I can't imagine the chaos you'd cause if you could Alpha Lilith, and an Alpha on Leveticus would all but guarantee his permanent demise (you'd just kill his own waifs).

Edited June 19, 2010 by Rathnard

[Justin]

The problem is that Alpha is a (2) spell, so if you cast it, you can't use howl or any other (1) ability in the same turn unless you find a way to give him fast or casting expert (neither of which is currently possible IIRC).

Student of Conflict.

Although if Marcus is fast (and close enough) I think it's better to hit them with a shillelagh strike to make them a beast, then use stare down, then use alpha.

Stare down makes resisting alpha much more difficult than howl does.

[Axhead]

Oops I failed to notice that Howl is a (1). Still even without Howl, I really like the suggestion of Feral + Stare Down + Alpha. You don't need a student of conflict and have more range than the shillelagh option...

I just realized that a handy dandy hoppy Jackalope could also Howl for you, in addition to the above.

The reason why I like the Howl is it should make a Sabertooths Roar quite effective.

[Ropetus]

I just realized that a handy dandy hoppy Jackalope could also Howl for you, in addition to the above.

The Jackalope can't Howl. It can only copy spells using Magical Extension and Howl is not a spell.

-Ropetus

[Axhead]

Well just stomp all over my jackalope parade why dont you

Looks like I will need to photo shop a new Jackalope card and tell people its in the "new" errata

[Axhead]

So if I Alpha an enemy model and use it to summon something, is that model now mine? Or failing that at least mine until the alphaed summoner returns back to his faction?

[tenabrae]

As you are the model's controller during the action, I would guess it's yours but don't take my word for it.

[Axhead]

Thats kind of what I was thinking, but since the Alphaed model returns to the original owner at the end of the turn it is also not unreasonable to assume that the summoned model would return to the other player as well.

The idea of Sebastian summoning a hound then companioning it only to have it maul another model before he gets it under control (when he returns to his players control) is pretty amusing

Of course if it doesn't return to Sebatians players control (ie it stays mine) that could represent "a bad batch of zombie puppy", with the caveat that a "a good batch" would be a fairly relative term

[Q'iq'el]

So if I Alpha an enemy model and use it to summon something, is that model now mine? Or failing that at least mine until the alphaed summoner returns back to his faction?

The summoned model is yours, but IIRC this means you need to bring the mini you want to summon.

Your opponent doesn't have to borrow you his miniatures and if you don't have the mini you want to summon, you cannot summon.

That makes it a bit problematic, because to reliably count on such abilities to summon models would require players to have small samples of all the summonable models from every faction - not entirely feasible for most players.

But of course if you play some sort of summoners and happen to have the minis needed to pull it out, why not?

[Lorenz]

umm I have seen a few threads on this subject first to the one that started it the best combo I have seen is

feral (0)

stare down (0)

Alpha (2)

often players dont realize how rough it is for them when you start this ball rolling with a simple spell that does nothing to them. ie: feral

then you stare down o give that model and all enemy beasts a negitive twist to all duels while in LoS.

then have a high mask in your had for god measure I often will use a soul stone on feral just to make sure I have a better chance of getting off alpha with out using a soul stone due to the negative flip of stare down.

ok my my question is can I alpha say an arachnid swarm and use it's melee actions to kills some stuff and then use self-destruct and kill the model and hopefully a few of his close friends

I feel like this is just a punch in the stomach to the guy that you are playing against and I would guess he will be hard pressed to let you do it again but can you do it can you sacrifice the unit you are controlling?

[Ropetus]

ok my my question is can I alpha say an arachnid swarm and use it's melee actions to kills some stuff and then use self-destruct and kill the model and hopefully a few of his close friends

I think you can. Obey has been corrected to have a limitation of not being able to kill or sacrifice the target model during the Action. Alpha has no such limitations.

Probably for balance as Alpha is used by a Master and is Marcus' only devastating spell. Also very hard to cast and drains all your Actions. It is supposed to be powerful.

I often use Wild Heart (Eagle, Fox, Serpent) + Blinding Strike versus non-Masters to deliver the Beast effect. Then you can cheat + Soulstone the Alpha cast to make it irresistible. This gives some protection for Marcus with +2 Df for the rest of the turn. However, against Masters I think Feral is the way to go since you want them to have when casting Alpha.

-Ropetus

Edited July 29, 2010 by Ropetus

[Lorenz]

I c

[Natty]

How about:

Make your opponents Ronin a beast, alpha it, and then sacrifice it to gain 2 soulstones.

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I am not sure how summoning a model with a model that has been alpha'ed works (is it yours or theirs at the end of the activation?). If the summoned model is yours how about this:

Your opponent fields Viktoria (which means almost guarenteed they will field a Ronin or two as well). Use the Ronin's ability to summon a Ronin for 5 soulstone (any master can use the ability, so if you are across the table from a Ronin, you can spend soulstones for your own Ronin).

Then, make Viktoria a beast and alpha her. Spend two more soulstones and sacrifice the Ronin you summoned to summon in your own Viktoria!

(Something has got to be wrong with being able to do what I just said. Do you really get to keep things that you summon? If you can, I don't see any other flaw in getting your very own pet Viktoria.)

[Lorenz]

umm you cant have more then one master in a scrap is the only thing I see wrong with that but that is for the army build I am not sure about that though you might be able to but you do have to have the model to place it but I think if you had the models you might actually be able to do that but it is a lot of SS not really worth it in my opinion but I do believe you can use the sacrifice to gain soulstones for sure

[Natty]

umm you cant have more then one master in a scrap is the only thing I see wrong with that but that is for the army build I am not sure about that though

I don't have the book at this location. Does anyone wanna quote the section on Masters? I am willing to bet it only talks about that limit during crew selection because Viktoria talks about increasing the limit on the number of Viktorias you can have, and not the number of Masters you can have out (Otherwise there would be a rule on her that you can have 3 out in a brawl and so on...)