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Tactica: Lilith


Dv8guy

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Due to the rule of equivelancy you would only be able to get 1 counter from the tot, starting with the closest model.

Its generally more efficient to use blood from stone to get blood counters than killing your own models.

Also, Zerg rushing with Lillith is not necessarily a good idea. While Lillith and her Nephilim can dish out some serious punishment, not all of them can take it.

The Lillith/Nekima pair will be able to brute force more situations than Lillith alone, but the Nephilim stand a way better chance of winning if you pick your battles.

Isolating individuals from the pack is the best way to go. Luring the enemy into a trap where you can use your Mature Nephilim to Knock Aside and charge the opposing master.

With the addition of the Lilitu you now have more than one way to isolate single models and have your way with them (that sounds appropriately dirty).

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Due to the rule of equivelancy you would only be able to get 1 counter from the tot, starting with the closest model.

Its generally more efficient to use blood from stone to get blood counters than killing your own models.

Also, Zerg rushing with Lillith is not necessarily a good idea. While Lillith and her Nephilim can dish out some serious punishment, not all of them can take it.

The Lillith/Nekima pair will be able to brute force more situations than Lillith alone, but the Nephilim stand a way better chance of winning if you pick your battles.

Isolating individuals from the pack is the best way to go. Luring the enemy into a trap where you can use your Mature Nephilim to Knock Aside and charge the opposing master.

With the addition of the Lilitu you now have more than one way to isolate single models and have your way with them (that sounds appropriately dirty).

Actuly there is a thread on this, found here http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14433

and to quote myself

Ok practical appilcations

I have Nekima and two terror tots my oppaint as a graverobber

My terror tot turns around and kills the other

which of the following happens

A) tot dies and generates a corpse counter nekima's abilty can't go off because a corpse counter has been make, my other terror tot can't use drain blood because corpse counter has been make

B) tot dies and nekima's abilty triggers and makes a blood counter, the corspes counter can't be and the neather can the terror tots drain blood since it must activate last

However as i understand the terrot would of made the corpse counter corpse counter anyway (even if there wasn't a graverobber, he/she just is needed to make it apear, so this ether make drain blood completly usless or as i see it the blood cunter is made by the abilties not the model dying so, the the terror tot generates corpse counter is made, nekima's abilty makes a blood counter and the other terror tot's drain blood make a blood counter

It's mostly due to to inteperation but since, but since it is anbilty that generates a blood counter, (with drain blood a (0) action and with nekima's an :aura tiggered by a model dying, this is different to graverobber and scavanger since they are charatoristic's that cause the dying model to generate corpse/scrap counters

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Im pretty sure its just a mistake in the wording and the intent is to make things like Drain Blood the exception to this.

If you think about it, Blood counters via drain blood is not a counter or effect generated of of a model's death. Ie when the model dies it does not instantly happen. Because it is a separate action it is still legal by the Rule of Equivalency.

Blood Sense (via Black Blood Shaman and Nekima) would have to deal with the rule of Eq. Which Blood Sense would over-ride the dropping of a corpse counter every time because it is an effect with a stated range and would thus be the closest compared to the general rule of having a grave-digger on the board to generate corpse counters. Or at least thats how it rings in my head.

I also agree with Natty that there is 100% a separation of effects and counters dropped and not a total. So if a small base model dies, it would generate 1 effect and 1 counter. Not 1 or the other as I see it.

Its something that we really need some more clarification on and honestly, probably a whole post of examples on how to use it correctly.

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As I heard it from my Henchman (who is a rule Guru) even if you Drained blood there would still be a Corpse counter made (as stated above). But he also said that you can only get one Blood counter, so you would have to choose if you want Nekima or the Tot to have it, not both.

But yes a rule clarification would be nice to clear this up here.

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Let go look at these inderviduly

Im pretty sure its just a mistake in the wording and the intent is to make things like Drain Blood the exception to this.

If you think about it, Blood counters via drain blood is not a counter or effect generated of of a model's death. Ie when the model dies it does not instantly happen. Because it is a separate action it is still legal by the Rule of Equivalency.

I think we can agree on drain blood, but i'll go though it anyway

Drain blood needs to outside this rule or it'll never be used since it is a (0) and must be used after the corspe counter has been made

Blood Sense (via Black Blood Shaman and Nekima) would have to deal with the rule of Eq. Which Blood Sense would over-ride the dropping of a corpse counter every time because it is an effect with a stated range and would thus be the closest compared to the general rule of having a grave-digger on the board to generate corpse counters. Or at least thats how it rings in my head.

I also agree with Natty that there is 100% a separation of effects and counters dropped and not a total. So if a small base model dies, it would generate 1 effect and 1 counter. Not 1 or the other as I see it.

Its something that we really need some more clarification on and honestly, probably a whole post of examples on how to use it correctly.

the problem is your teating graverobber as an abilty, it is'nt it is a characteristic that cause's living/undead to generate corpse counters and on Blood Sense it say's when a living or undead model dies with 3' (i think can't rember the distance) it gain's one blood counter, it never say the the dying model generates a corpse coounter only that it gains one. also i belive i'm right in saying that Blood Sense doesn't stack with other model's blood sense (although it does the drain blood since it was stated on the beta next to the abilty that both of these abilty's stack)

Edited by Sliver Chocobo
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also i belive i'm right in saying that Blood Sense doesn't stack with other model's blood sense (although it does the drain blood since it was stated on the beta next to the abilty that both of these abilty's stack)

Erm, no, it wasn't actually - it was clearly stated in the beta that you couldn't use blood sense if another model gained a blood counter from the same kill. (Obviously this says nothing about the rule as it stands in Book 2 - just pointing out something from the beta)

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Rush of Magic is great, it lets you stack your hand a little and drop annoying cards like Aces or the Black joker if he ends up in your hand.

Sorry, if I come back all the way to the second post, but why would you drop the black joker? In my experience, keeping the BJ on your hand is golden. It reduces your hand size effectively, but you can be so sure that one stupid draw doesn't ruin your plan. If you have it on your hand, you can rely on making damage with every hit you can land. I hate nothing more than the final hit on the enemy master resulting in 0 damage due to the BJ. Thus, keep it on the hand and be able to plan your actions much more reliable.

Apart from that, I think Lilith should always be equipped with about 6 SS. She is going to be where the trouble is. As a result, she suffers a lot of attacks and/ or must sometimes be sure to hit this nasty fellow she attacked. Now I'm waiting for book 2 to comment on any of the new guys :boring:

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Lillith-cache 4

Zoraida-cache 5

Mature Nephalim-10

Young Nephalim-6

Waldgeist-6

3 terror tots-9

Cherub-2

cache-10

alternatively drop terrortot, cherub and 1ss for a second waldgeist or young.

Zoraida doesn't have alot of synergy with her crew so you can really build around the Lillith/Nephalim warmachine. Z's 2 obeys can be a huge boost to the mature nephalim. It will take a little planning and finesse since you want to get kills on the mature's turn to get a blood counter and you can't activate them together.

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Lillith-cache 4

Zoraida-cache 5

Mature Nephalim-10

Young Nephalim-6

Waldgeist-6

3 terror tots-9

Cherub-2

cache-10

alternatively drop terrortot, cherub and 1ss for a second waldgeist or young.

Zoraida doesn't have alot of synergy with her crew so you can really build around the Lillith/Nephalim warmachine. Z's 2 obeys can be a huge boost to the mature nephalim. It will take a little planning and finesse since you want to get kills on the mature's turn to get a blood counter and you can't activate them together.

Thanks! I picked up a box of Zoraida today and hoping to do a test run sometime this week. I think I'm still getting used to playing Lilith and having the courage to just push her into battle. I've been getting my butt kicked with Rasputina with her December's curse.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Lilith +4

Tot -3

Tot -3

Lelu -7

Lititu -7

Nekima +13

I was thinking of using this force for a 35pt game.

My plan was to keep the lelu and lititu up front, to do the majority of the fighting, with nekima and lilith right behind or possibly on a flank.

The tots would sit back untill they could be grown.

I figure the lelu/lititu would be able to kill enough to have a good advantage by the time the tots are mature.

*EDIT I would want the cherub in there as well.

Granted I'm a beginner that hasn't played yet. I also think having a shaman would be good too.

Edited by Leojond
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Lilith +4

Tot -3

Tot -3

Lelu -7

Lititu -7

Nekima +13

I was thinking of using this force for a 35pt game.

My plan was to keep the lelu and lititu up front, to do the majority of the fighting, with nekima and lilith right behind or possibly on a flank.

The tots would sit back untill they could be grown.

I figure the lelu/lititu would be able to kill enough to have a good advantage by the time the tots are mature.

*EDIT I would want the cherub in there as well.

Granted I'm a beginner that hasn't played yet. I also think having a shaman would be good too.

Just my personal opinion, but the point of Lilith crew is that Lilith does the fighting.

The point of Nekima is that she does the fighting even better than a Mature Nephilim would and supports the crew on the top of that. Most of her bonuses are auras, so she needs to be in the thick of things, with all the Nephilim more or less packed around her.

I think squeezing both Nekima and the siblings into same list is the new-toy syndrome. Once you take all the new stuff, there's not enough flesh in the list to fight a regular battle.

You need the Nephilim both to grow into the Young and then Mature, and to summon Lelu or Lelitu if one of the two gets killed. You also need them to spread around and grab the objectives, because your other models may have to stay close to maintain their synergy.

Lelu and Lelitu do nothing for growing your Terror Tots and the process itself isn't easy. In a list that takes the two, you probably want at least 1 Young Nephilim and 3 or more Tots. Young+Lelu+Lilith will probably stack enough counters early on to get some growing going. 2 Young would be even better, as you can quickly mature one.

Whether you go with Lelu and Lelitu or Nekima, a Waldgeist is still going to be anexcellent addition to the crew - skip him only if there's no forest whatsoever on the table. If you are low on points, swap one Young for a Waldgeist whenever you see the forest.

Cherub is IMHO the best totem Lilith can take, but it is a totem that works best once you understand the positioning game Lilith plays. For a beginner player Primordial Magic is easier to use - bigger hand means bigger margin of error in resource management and you don't need to know the game very well to profit from the Primordial Magic's abilities.

Nekima, utility-wise, is kind of a mirror to Lelitu. Lelitu hangs back and draws opponents towards your crew or pushes ahead in cover and pulls the crew towards the fight to make it even faster.

Nekima on the other hand charges headfirst and then throws the models she's done with back towards your second line, so that they can finish them off without exposing themselves. She also has some major mobility of her own, augmented if there are Nephilim fighting and dying around her.

Taking both gives some major pushing possibilities, but as it can be seen in your list, you are too thin on Nephilim to profit from that (who will you toss and lure these weakened opponents to? 2 Terror Tots?). Other than utility, Nekima is first and foremost a killing machine.

Black Shaman looks great on paper, but he's horribly slow. Lelu is a bit slowish for a Lilith crew, the shaman beats even him. Ride Nephilim is a synergy ability designed to overcome that problem, but you have to take Mature Nephilim and you have to commit him to carrying the shaman around. That almost excludes Nekima (at least in 30~35SS bracket) and makes him impractical in Lelu/Lelitu list that wants multiple small Nephilim around.

Granted, the shaman wants to be close to the combat, so it isn't all bad, but I personally want no obstacles in playing movement to my advantage, since a Nephilim crew wins through movement. Anyway, should I take him, I'd probably design a list with 2 Mature Nephilim and either some Youngs or multiple Terror Tots.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi all,

After playing Lillith for several games I have begun to notice some things about her that I feel should be mentioned. These mostly apply to melee focused crews.

1. It was mentioned in an earlier post that it is not nessisarily the best idea to advance as quickly as possible with Lillith. My first two games against the Vics had Lillith dying on turn 2 and 3 because I ran as quickly as possible to engage, and got close enough for them to bring the hurt on Lillith.

I have found it to be better to move up the field and take a defensive position in terrain that slows the opponent, but can be ignored by Lillith, Young and Mature Nephillim, Sillurids using leap, Waldgeists and Terrortots using scout, etc. A melee crew will usually advance towards you. I find that using a lesser model to keep the enemy stuck in difficult terrain allows me to charge with Lillith. While her defense is very high, it is much better to give the charge than to recieve it.

2. Transposition is awesome but needs to be used intelligently. It has won me games. I have found that transposing an already activated enemy beatstick into melee range of several unactivated models can be very effective. I did this to Bishop last night and managed to take him down without taking any wounds from him. He charged and injured a waldgeist, and then found himself surrounded by Lillith, two sillurids, and another waldgeist. Lillith still had two actions left.

Transposition can also be used well against masters that are not melee oriented. I transposed Lillith and Johan the other night against Collette, which put me into melee range of her. She was already pretty injured and did not want to risk being killed while disengaging due to Lillith's "wicked" abillity. So she switched with Cassandra. Next turn I won initiative and killed Cassandra before she could activate.

3. Defense of 8 or 10 and 10 wounds is excellent, but a dedicated melee master can still one shot her if they are holding the red joker and use it for damage. My first two games had the vics killing Lillith, once with a red joker cheated for the damage flip. After these experiences I have learned to try to keep the vics apart via transpostion as much as possible.

Last night I charged a vic and hurt it badly but it survived. Two extremely wounded vics did 8 wounds to Lilith after cheating and soul stone usage on both sides.

4. This may have been said earlier, but I will say it again. In a fight against another melee army, it has been my experience that it is better to attack with another model before Lillith. This will keep the other melee beat stick from charging. And then use Lillith to charge. Lillith is also very good for counter charging other models.

5. Not really Lillith specific, but useful still. If the enemy has a model that is a really large melee beat stick type model. (Steamborg Executionor, etc. ) Pick the scheme "grudge" with that model, as it will most likely be running towards you and attempting to kill you anyway. I hit my opponents steamborg with a terrortot using flay, and did 5 wounds to it. He activated and used his "knock aside and free charge abillity" very well, killing a terror tot and a young nephilim, but putting him near Lillith. She finished him off. Total soul stone cost of the borg is 10, he killed 9 points worth of models, but gave me a victory point due to grudge.

Hope this all helps.

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