Tactica: Lilith

[Dv8guy]

There does not seem to be a tactica for Lilith so I am starting one. Please include here all usefull tactices that you have found.

[karn987]

Well I guess I'll start off then.

Lilith is easily our most straightforward master and is coincidentally, the one furthest from the Neverborn norm.

Lets start with a brief look at her stat line and abilities.

Wk/Cg: Better then average but not the best in the game. It's still more then enough for our lovely red head.

Ht: Well it's what we would expect from a human sized model.

Wp: About average, nothing special about it. Just enough to make most Wp resist rolls.

Ca: Low for a master and the lowest of the 3 Neverborn masters right now. But that being said, it's enough to work all her spells even if it is a bit low, you may need to soulstone her 2 resistible spells to make sure they can't be beat.

Df: Really really high. Her Df kinda shocked me at first and as with most Neverborn models, this is her best defense. Plus she has a trigger on her Defense she already has the suit for, just soulstone up your score to make sure the enemy misses the first strike and you become a lot harder to hit.

Wd: Pretty solid, not the highest but certainly not hte lowest. It's about right, just be careful of crazy combat beasts like Lady Justice and Samael Hopkins.

Greatsword:

Rg:As big as it gets really and 2" is a huge advantage over a lot of models. Half the masters don't have 2" Rg so all you do is walk up to 2" of them, beat on them and if they happen to survive they have to use an action to get in range.

Cb: Above average and rightfully so for our only melee master. It also has half of the needed suits for her trigger which, like Rush of Magic, helps cycle her hand to the cards you want.

Dg: Not an amazing damage line, but very solid. It's going to hurt no matter what type it is but she still doesn't hit like the guild with their critical strikes.

Now lets take a look at her talents.

Black Blood like every other Nephilim makes the enemy think twice about sending in wounded models that don't do much damage.

Rush of Magic is great, it lets you stack your hand a little and drop annoying cards like Aces or the Black joker if he ends up in your hand.

Master of Malifaux is quite possibly her best ability and is the reason I picked her up to begin with. You never want Lilith to come at someone straight on, you want to walk through walls and charge through forest at them. The more terrain on the board, the more useful this ability is.

Weapon, Greatsword is pretty good just like lady Justice's. The positive flip on damage helps out a lot, making sure you can get your positive/negative flips to that all important minimum of no flips so you can cheat the damage.

Wicked is just evil so to speak. Come through the wall, engage a few guys with her 2" reach, kill one of them. Now they have a choice, either stand and try to fight her or run. When they run, your ready to cut their pretty head's off and drink their blood.

Now it's time for Actions.

Fast is great no matter who it appears on and on Lilith it's even better. She is incredibly manueverable and the extra action just makes her even more dangerous.

Brood Mother can be very handy at the right time. Companion a Mautre Nephlim and you have a battle buddy to take into the fray with you.

Drain Blood like all the other Nephlim. Though it doesn't do anything for her at all (still bothers me she can't use the blood tokens for anything >.>) it does help her babies because their grow and mature spells state "Or 1 friendly Nephlim within 6". So you can just send Lilith through the walls, kill a guy or two, bring her back and then feed her babies.

Blood from stone is really a raw deal but it can be handy if you really need that last blood token and there are is no easy pray left.

Whirling death is very very powerful if the enemy clusters. Just be careful though, since she isn't quite the beatstick of some other masters (like Lady Justice) she may not kill them all and you may have just sent her into a bad situation. Pick and choose when to use this. I personally favor hit and run tactics to walking in and whirling on a group.

I'm skipping over triggers because I went over them briefly on their relivant stats. So now we move onto spells.

Alluring is an interesting spell, I say intersting because it looks good but I have yet to use it. The -2 df is great if your going after a model with a stupidly high defense. The can't charge this model is not so useful, since the aura is just 3". I'm sure there are uses for this, just not many I have found.

Earthquake can be great for geting objectives or moving the enemy off theirs. It also helps to push ranged enemies out of LOS so they can't focus and attack during their next turn. Just be careful, it's ALL models in the pulse are pushed and their is a resist. Make sure you get the casting total up nice and high if your counting on this to work, spend a soulstone if you need.

Illusionary Forest is my favorite spell from her list. I'm sure you have read other posts on the forum about making a donut with this spell... don't. Just use a 3"x3" square and don't try to pull something cheesy or your opponent will probably never want to play you again. This spell's main use is cutting off LOS by putting it between you and the enemy. The severe terrain can also be great for bogging down an area and letting your Nephlim move through it without any imparement.

Transposition is a great grea great spell but a bit hard to pull off. You need 2 masks to make it work, so make sure you have on in your hand. You are also going to want to Soul stone the casting total because the enemy is not going to want this to go off if it targets them. If you target your own guys, remember you can't opt to auto fail the resist, you can cheat it so you still fail but don't leave the casting total to low if you don't have the cards to cheat lower. I almost always keed a Terror Tot near Lilith, so I often use this spell to try and bring the enemy master straight to me. Or using it to drop a Mature Nephlim in the midst of the enemies and start tearing faces off.

Phew, so that was a bit long winded but thats a basic run through of her abilites, talents, spells, stats etc.

Some basic tactics with Lilith:

What I perceive as the key to making her and her army work is terrain abuse. She flat out ignores it and your bigger Nephlim can fly over it. NEVER come at the enemy straight on unless it benifits you best to do this. Hide and skulk through the shadows and spring your Nephlim on the enemy at the perfect time. Use Lilith's Illusionary Forest to help hide your troops as you move accross the field.

Its pretty easy to see that she likes to have an army comprised mainly of Nephlim of varying ages. She can very quickly grow her Terror Tots up into bigger and bigger Nephlim but this takes time. It's good to go with a mix of the varying ages, maximizing your potential output. I always take a Mature Nephlim and when the model is released, I'll probably take 1 or two Young Nephlim and the rest of the points for Terror Tots and her Totem. Her forces composition is really a matter of your own tastes. Though Don't make the mistake of only taking Terror Tots, this doesn't work as well as you think. They don't have the damage output of the other ages and they can't take much of a hit. Mix the ages and don't get greedy, the enemy usually has only 5 to 6 models in a 25 ss game any way.

Lilith should move up the field by using terraint to it's fullest. Stay inside buildies, forests, behind walls etc. Anything that can block LOS to her is where she wants to be because you don't care about the terrain at all. Remember, you can always see through it so don't forget to charge through walls and forests, surprising the enemy and taking someone down quickly. You can get Transposition off by casting it through walls and switching the enemy with one of your Nephlim and then finishing off the model you just brought to you.

Use Illusionary Forest to cut of LOS to your Nephlim as they move with her. They may be almost as fast but they can't go through terrain like she can. The older Nephlim can fly, so make sure you use this. Fly up onto buildings or straight over them, abuse the terrain the best way you can think of.

She is sort of a whirling storm that comes sweaping into the enemy line, strikes in the key weak points, and then leaves just as quickly. Don't stand and slug it out if you can't win. If your have someone keeping you in their melee range and you want to run, use Earthquake to push them away or Transposition to switch them with one of your models. She is the most straightforward of the Neverborn Masters but she still has a fair amount of tricks.

Just always remember to abuse the terrain, that is the key to playing Lilith.

[Thoughttrauma]

nice post!

[Druthu]

nice post!

/ditto

[Fool]

be aware that some of this has changed with the errata. Still a very good write up though!

[Last bullet]

Great post!

What has changed due to the errata?

[Rathnard]

Great post!

What has changed due to the errata?

The big one is that Lilith can no longer move/charge through terrain, buildings etc. So she needs line of sight to her target if she wants to smash face.

Also, I'm pretty sure you need to see both models to cast transposition on them.

Having never played with her I'm not sure what advice I can give, but the best approach seems to be to advance under cover of illusionary forest and use transposition to isolate and kill enemy models. The Mature Nephilim still ignores LoS when he charges with a dive attack, though.

A sound plan of attack might be;

Phase 1 - Advance into position under cover of illusionary forest. Use transposition to isolate and kill enemy minions and/or get some Nephilim into flanking positions

Phase 2 - Dive in with the Mature Neph, get the rest of the crew either into combat or into a position to charge next turn.

Phase 3 - Charge in with the second wave, keeping the pressure up by growing minions where possible.

[Q'iq'el]

Also, I'm pretty sure you need to see both models to cast transposition on them.

Actually the "Master of Malifaux" wording from Errata is that she does ignore cover, when drawing LOS. What has changed is that rather than ignoring all terrain when moving, she ignores hazardous, severe and water terrain only.

That means she can still target her spells through terrain and I think she can charge models that are hidden behind obstacles... she just can't move through the walls etc. they're hiding behind.

[Viktorias_Secret]

I have just finished painting my brood and will be "raising hell" with it tomorrow night so this info was priceless. Thank you so much, Karn, for taking the time to post these tactics.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Another great tactic with Earthquake is to cast it 3 times with her and once with the Cherub first turn to get your crew upfield quickly early on.

[Jadin]

Yep, really considering adding her to my Malifaux collection for something else to play. I think her and her brood will go as a nice different option from Seamus, Sonnia, and Perdita.

My major concern though was how her rules have changed. The rest of the group treats her like a pariah now, and thinks she lost a lot. I feel otherwise though.

[Viktorias_Secret]

How about this one, I call it "Lilith Ball":

Start behind cover in contact with a mature Neph. Have the Mature Neph cast carry and move 6" carring Lilith. The Neph spends an AP to go into Defensive Stance. Lilith Activates and uses Brood Mother to companion a nearby Cherub. Lilith charges an enemy within 9" and gets an attack in. The Cherub can then cast Transposition and switch the Lilith w/ Mature Neph. Of course, its all in the cards.

[Justin]

Yep, really considering adding her to my Malifaux collection for something else to play. I think her and her brood will go as a nice different option from Seamus, Sonnia, and Perdita.

My major concern though was how her rules have changed. The rest of the group treats her like a pariah now, and thinks she lost a lot. I feel otherwise though.

She has lost a lot.

But she was over powered before she lost it, now she's just balanced.

[Joona]

How about this one, I call it "Lilith Ball":

Start behind cover in contact with a mature Neph. Have the Mature Neph cast carry and move 6" carring Lilith. The Neph spends an AP to go into Defensive Stance. Lilith Activates and uses Brood Mother to companion a nearby Cherub. Lilith charges an enemy within 9" and gets an attack in. The Cherub can then cast Transposition and switch the Lilith w/ Mature Neph. Of course, its all in the cards.

The enemy gets an activation between the Carry and Lilith's activation. It might affect your plan somehow or not. And the Cherub has Companion (Lilith), you don't need Brood Mother for that. If possible it's better to activate both Lilith and the Cherub, give the Mature Companion with Brood Mother, then charge in with Lilith (17" threat range with a 6" move + 9" charge + 2" melee range, should be plenty) and do a lot of damage. Then cast Transposition with the Cherub, switch Lilith with the Mature and continue do more damage straight away. And then you'll just hope that the Mature Neph survives from whatever there's left. Or hit twice and go to defensive stance.

All you really need is the card to pull off the Transposition. Because it's a spell you can choose to lose the Wp resist with Lilith and the Mature. Don't do it near Pandora and her Sorrows though

Edited April 13, 2010 by Joona

[Rathnard]

Or hit twice and go to defensive stance.

As per the errata, I believe defensive stance must be the first action the model takes in its activation. I'll need to double check that though.

[Joona]

As per the errata, I believe defensive stance must be the first action the model takes in its activation. I'll need to double check that though.

Well, go to defensive stance and hit twice, it still hurts the same. Good correction though, you can't run around too much while trying to be sneaky. Unless you're a Ronin.

[Q'iq'el]

The enemy gets an activation between the Carry and Lilith's activation. It might affect your plan somehow or not. And the Cherub has Companion (Lilith), you don't need Brood Mother for that.

Brood Mother, when used, gives simultaneous activation to the companion, right? And since Cherub is a companion too, I think you can simultaneously activate the Mature, Cherub and Lilith.

Carry Lilith forward, activate her, cast alluring for -2DF aura, charge in, massacre the target (possibly with soulstone to ensure a ++ damage flip) and then use the cherub to transposition her with Mature Nephilim (if there still is anything alive left).

If the opponent proves to be resilient, you'll have time to activate defensive stance later on, I think. Mature Nephilim may have a bit low Df, but it has Armor and ton of wounds so it won't go down that easy.

Additional benefit of doing it that way:

1. Opponent will get extra wounds from Black Blood if he beats the big guy (ant that may be just enough to finish him off)

2. The Mature Nephilim will terrorize an area 6" in diameter (thanks to its huge base) and just may make someone fall back.

That is if I got simultaneous activation right. The wording is somewhat confusing for a beginner, so I try to rely on the forum discussions to get it right.

[Ropetus]

Here is the problem with this plan: Brood Mother does give the Mature Nephilim Companion (Lilith). However, you still cannot activate it in the middle of Lilith's activation, you have to finish activating her first which means she won't be able to do anything after Carried. As per the rules for Abilities that grant companion during activation the target model gets to activate immediately after the acting model. They don't follow the regular rules for Companion since the Mature Nephilim doesn't have the ability at the point when Companion has to be declared.

So no Carrying Lilith, activating her and Transpositioning her back to safety all in one turn. Your opponent will get an activation between Mature's and Lilith's activation.

-Ropetus

[tenabrae]

I've so far thought of carry as fairly useless for a Lillith-based crew... she's fast, the other nephs are fast... you can teleport and do all sorts of pushes (e.g. the mature neph can charge, knock aside a model into charge range for the rest of the crew, and gank something in the back line).

Maybe if you run the mature neph with Big Z so it can carry her otherwise pathetic slow speed to the front then she can obey the neph into battle.

[Chucklemonkey]

An interesting read, thanks for helping decide what my next crew will be.

Has anyone tied proxying Waldgiests in a list yet? I'm guessing there is a measure of synergy there due to illusionary forest?

[RichardCarr]

I was originally planning to use Games Workshop Dryads for these, but I am coming round to the idea of using more traditional nympth like dryads, to fit in better with my bright paint scheme I've used for Lilith and her kids.

[Epic Jimbo]

I love the Earthquake Advance. I need to use it more often.

[ilikepizza]

one way of getting my crew moving nice and fast is to buy a mature nephilim, and place all my models within an inch of it infront of it, then I activate the mature neph, wing buffet twice to move everyone else 6" then earthquake 3 times with lilith and once with her totem for a net movement of 14" on most of the crew, before they've activated.

also, a good way of using transpose is to use liliths brood mother (0) action to companion a mature or young nephilim, then cast transpose on the companioned nephilim and one enemy model, they swap places, then lilith smashes the model who has been transposed to pieces.

then of course the nephilim activates, charges (probably their master, nice to get some wounds in nice and early) and then hits again with melee expert, probably forcing your opponent to take some damage or burn soulstones.

I often do this to the ortegas, liliths cast may be low, but as long as you don't target a master model and a soul stone is used, it usually becomes impossible for them to resist ( a 22 or more should do it, unless your brave, in which case you could target papa).

[Sliver Chocobo]

Lilith's best spell by far is by Transposition, Combined with a terror tot can get lilith to 12' with 1 AP or even better get an unactivated mature 12' ahead, currently for book i have been working together a 35 point list with

Lilith

5 terror tots

Nikam

Litilu

The way this work is this terror tot A activeates and killes , and drains blood (two blood counters, Nikam 1, TTA 1) Litilu second, using the blood counter from TTA, she it in to a Lelu, then killes TTC and uses drain blood (thre blood countersin total, Nikam 2, Litilu 1) TTD grows and then matures (much easlier due to Nikam) TTE sprints into the distance but not too far that Lilith can't cach up, finaly Liliith move into postion where she is within 12' of the mature and the terror tot and swaps them around, second turn use the mature as a distraction (by killing somthing) bring the rest of your crew foward and well smash stuff, if went to 40 points i would add a student of comflict because mature's should NEVER HAVE FAST

[quotemyname]

The way this work is this terror tot A activeates and killes

Brilliant. I never thought of having one of the nephs kill another one in order to drain blood. Thumbs up.

So with everything I've read, it seems I wasn't wrong in assuming that most Lilith strategy revolves around, "zerg rush."