Stampeding?

[Underbheit]

Hi Wyrd people,

I've played "The Teeth" 3 times now and I'm still confused by some of the rules.

As far as I can tell, the pigs stampede as an ability based on some game effects. Once they stampede they get a nibble of gore attack depending on the type of pig, small or large. This attack is 1AP. Then the pig does what? I read somewhere that they can't use fast during stampede, so they don't have enough AP for another attack, right? Or are additonal pigcharge attacks in that activation phase 1 AP as well? If so am I to assume that "pig charge" is not necessarily a "charge" but a type of melee strike, just given a misleading name?

Could someone please explain how this works.

Thanks.

Edited November 8, 2009 by Underbheit

[Monkey]

OK from looking at at the cards.

piggy is stampeding.

Pig charge is the only ability that it can use. and pig charge only costs one AP so piggy can pig charge 2 times ( remember you don't have to stop in combat.) each pig charge needs to be towards the closest non-pig miniature ( even goblins)

as for if you can use recklessly fast to gain another AP I cant find where it says you cant. It may be that you may only pig charge as an action bit, but i see recklessly fast as a +1 so you are not using an action you are just gaining one. either way if you time it right even a piglet can bring a world of pain to people.

[AoM]

Monkey's got it. Pinball piggies, ftw!

[whisper]

Hi I was told here

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8834

While stampeding isn't the pig-charge the only action your pigs can take? So you essentially only get 2 pig-charges per turn, not three, because reckless is an action you cannot use while stampeding.

that reckless is an action...

[Monkey]

in the same topic on the last page some one else is saying that its not an action. I also dont think that wendigo is a reprisentative of wyrd... It would have alot more weight if it was a quote from a play tester or eric.

[Thortheviking]

I think I disagree that +1 Reckless Fast is an Action. It is an AP to use, but not an action in itself. Just like +1 Casting expert isn't an Action.....it's a specific AP used for casting spells. The spell would be the action taken. Likewise, when stampeding, using Reckless is the AP which enables the player to take another action...in this case, the only one allowed would be to stampede.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

(+1) Reckless: Fast is an Action Modifier. not specifically an Action to itself.

Pigs can pig charge while stampeding 3 times if they choose to suffer the Wd loss.

[Justin]

(+1) Reckless: Fast is an Action Modifier. not specifically an Action to itself.

Pigs can pig charge while stampeding 3 times if they choose to suffer the Wd loss.

Since passing isn't an option during a stampede, wouldn't they HAVE to charge three times and take a wound?

[Thortheviking]

I would say no, since you don't HAVE to take a pass in order to NOT use fast, melee expert, or casting expert.

[Wombats]

So double Pig Charge and an optional third at the cost of wounding.

Noyce.

Now all I need is Teddy to be up on the store and I'll be makin' bacon.

[Justin]

I would say no, since you don't HAVE to take a pass in order to NOT use fast, melee expert, or casting expert.

I may be wrong, but I can't find anything about this.

Pg 46: Fast: This model receives 1 additional general AP during its current or next activation, whichever comes first.

Pg 44: A model may not have any AP at the end of its activation. If any AP are remaining, the model is considered to have taken the Pass Action with those AP.

Melee expert and casting expert are slightly different since those generate specific AP.

So, as far as I can see, a model with fast that only uses 2 AP has to take a pass action with the third. Since stampede doesn't allow for a pass, you must make three pig charges and take a wound.

I guess the only way that I see you could argue that a pig would not have to take all three charges is if becoming reckless fast is an action the pig can opt to activate. But, if this is true, then you could not opt to activate it since, "this model may only pig charge during its activations."

So, either:

A) Reckless fast is an ability which must be activated that may not be activated during a stampede.

Or:

Reckless fast is simply a condition of the model and is essentially always on and the pig must use all three AP to pig charge.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Justin

[n0signal]

I think you're interpreting this incorrectly. (+1)Reckless:Fast is not an "ability" is is a modifier, like Weird Sketch said. Basically, this of it like this rather than an ability:

- All Gremlins (Exc. Hog Whisperer) and Pigs have the option of using either 2AP or 3AP; I.e. they can choose to be either normal or Fast. If they choose to have 3AP them they will take 1WD.

- If a Pig stampedes then it must use all it's action points to (1)Pigcharge. However, it still has a choice about how many AP it has to burn; you could decide it'll have a standard 2AP or you could decide that it has 3AP and is Fast but then it'll take a wound on it's third Pigcharge.

- If you have summoned a Piglet or a Gremlin on that turn you have two choices. If you activate it normally with 2AP then it will receive Slow because it was summoned; leaving you with 1AP. If you decide to activate the model with 3AP then Fast will cancel out Slow and you will activate with 2AP; this will not cause the Gremlin or Pig to suffer a wound as they are not using more than 2AP.

Is this making sense? This is how (+1)Reckless:Fast works. It is an OPTIONAL extra general AP that you can choose to take. So you don't need to (1)Pass to avoid that third AP, ever.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

To be fair, I made that call before I was official.

I'll be looking into this and get back to you.

[Justin]

I think you're interpreting this incorrectly. (+1)Reckless:Fast is not an "ability" is is a modifier, like Weird Sketch said. Basically, this of it like this rather than an ability:

I agree that it is a modifier and not an ability. Where we disagree is the "optional" part. I do not see how a modifier can be optional. Could you point me to where it says you can choose to use modifiers?

And thanks to weird sketch for checking for me. Much appreciated.

[n0signal]

I agree that it is a modifier and not an ability. Where we disagree is the "optional" part. I do not see how a modifier can be optional. Could you point me to where it says you can choose to use modifiers?

Well, the rulebook mentions specific AP and being able to ignore the (1)Pass and optionally choose not to use them; but of course the problem is that (+1)Reckless:Fast grants general AP. The way that you're interpreting it would mean that ALL the Gremlins and Pigs would be taking a wound every time they activate!? That seems wrong. It's worded with the intention that you have to make a choice.

[Justin]

Well, the rulebook mentions specific AP and being able to ignore the (1)Pass and optionally choose not to use them; but of course the problem is that (+1)Reckless:Fast grants general AP. The way that you're interpreting it would mean that ALL the Gremlins and Pigs would be taking a wound every time they activate!? That seems wrong. It's worded with the intention that you have to make a choice.

(+1) Reckless: Fast. This model suffers 1 Wd when it uses more than 2 AP during its activation.

Just quoting for reference.

You're very right: the fact that fast creates general AP is the issue.

This all comes down to how they choose to define "use of AP." I would say that, although the pass action eliminates the AP, it is not considered a use of AP for the purposes of reckless fast. In other words, all gremlins always have 3 AP all the time, but they take a wound if they do not take a pass with at least one of their actions. (or if they were summoned or otherwise received slow for any reason) This may seem a bit off to you, but let's look at our other options. There are two, as far as I can tell:

A) The first is the option you pointed out, and a quirk that I first noticed when I read the gremlin entry. Since passing is an action, gremlins always take a wound on their activation no matter what. Actually, from a purely rules as written point of view, this is probably the correct interpretation at this point in time, but nobody will ever play it this way.

Models may choose to ignore modifiers as they see fit. There are all kinds of wrong with this interpretation. What if there was a model with the slow trait. Would you allow your opponent to opt not to use it and just have 2 AP instead of 1? It makes no more sense than ignoring fast.

I think the easiest way to solve the issue is to either say that pigs must use all three actions to pig charge during a stampede (which would involve no errata of the current rules, although a sticky situation does arise when the pig has one wound left and can't kill itself, but has to wound itself, but a simple ruling one way or the other would solve it) or pigs could have an errata to lose reckless fast during a stampede.

But, of course, I am not a marshal and I could be totally off. Never forget to take into account the possibility that you're absolutely dead wrong.

Plus they're working on it. I could be patient and wait, but speculating is fun.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Justin

[newsun]

Thing is, it's not that they are losing fast...some models like Lilith and Seamus actually have fast. The pigs have it as a +1, which to me indicates it is more optional. An additional ability they can activate. They can be reckless though will suffer wounds and gain fast.

[Justin]

Thing is, it's not that they are losing fast...some models like Lilith and Seamus actually have fast. The pigs have it as a +1, which to me indicates it is more optional. An additional ability they can activate. They can be reckless though will suffer wounds and gain fast.

If this is true, then a stampeding pig couldn't activate it since all they can do is pig charge.

Also, I don't see anything in the rule book about (+1) being optional. I can kind of see the argument that since it is under the bold heading "actions" you may presume that it is an action that can be taken, but that brings us back to stampeding pigs not using it.

[newsun]

Yeah, I think that should actually be listed as an ability, to be able to become reckless and have an extra action and have to suffer a wound. This is where someone with rulesy power would have to step in and make the choice for us.

I would play it as optional and if there is a question about it in a game, just filp for it and move on.

[Justin]

Yeah, I think that should actually be listed as an ability, to be able to become reckless and have an extra action and have to suffer a wound. This is where someone with rulesy power would have to step in and make the choice for us.

I would play it as optional and if there is a question about it in a game, just filp for it and move on.

Yeah, errata is one option.

I'm cool with having my pigs stampeding themselves to death though. It's fun. I mean, you can run a horse to death.