Nicodem: Which totem?

[Werecat]

So, I'm looking to start playing Nicodem when I receive him this week. I was looking into possible totems to use with him, and I hit a quandry.

First, I looked at the Grave Spirit. With Nicodem having Embrace Death, the Grave Spirit could link to him, and just give him Armor 2 for the entire game, helping his survivability, and for only 1 soulstone!

But, then I looked at his totem, the Vultures. The ability for the vultures to use Magic Extension then Eyes and Ears, letting Nicodem cast his spells though them, which really helps his slowness. Plus bring back is really awesome for those corpse counters that are just too far away for Arise, of just to have them for reanimator. But, that's at a hefty price of 4 points for two.

So, yeah... which do you guys prefer?

[Ken]

I'm personally leaning twards the vultures. They'll let me keep nicodem out of harms ways. Armor is nice but I'd rather not have him anywhere he could even be hit much less take damage, especially with his pitiful defence. That's what punk zombies where made for.

[thewartoad]

The vultures! The only problem I see with them is the possibility of impassible terrain, a minor set back. Their well worth the 4 soulstones!

[ork56]

without reading the rulebook

I thought vultures could land in impassable terrain due to 'Perch'? (or some similar ability)

[Werecat]

You are correct sir. Because of flight, then can move over it, and because of perch, they can end in it.

[nilus]

I played around with both of them and I have to say the Vultures win hands down. Depending on the size of the game you don't always need to bring two but even one is really good. Letting you cast spells while still having a wall of undead in front of you is a major perk for Nico. And it drives your opponent crazy knowing that he can have 4 Decays cast at him from possibly three different directions.

Like all Totems they are bit squishy so be sure to not overextend them unless you are sure you can get your points worth of damage out of them before they die.

[Sushicaddy]

I am planning on running Nicodem fairly aggressively so he can stay within 10" of his Undead and buff them, therefore I plan to use the grave spirit. but against certain Masters/crews the vulture would totally be worth it (like playing against any crew that includes Papa loco).

[Haight]

Vultures. At first i was going to go with grave spirit, but then i realized that his little avian friends can use themselves as a focal point to cast fog, requiring 6 Masks+ to pull it when nicodem casts through them after a use of eyes and ears.

Which means it's very possible to have 3 castings of Fog, which creates a gigantic swath of cover production.

The armor is nice on nico, but its superfluous - you should be generating zombies quickly enough that you can shunt some damage here an there off, and decay yourself back up when required. Between shunting, decay healing, fog, and hard to wound, he should be pretty sustainable.

Additionally, while its much harder, you can also bounce decay, Reanimator, and rigor mortis through the birds as well, which gives you many more vectors of approach. The birds can also create huge zones of corpse token collection via "bring it back" as well, which can be positively vital when playing against guild.

While the grave spirit can Magical Extension, it can only get 3 Crows at it, while the bird can use Eyes and Ears and nicodem can cast through it with 4 Crows.

I think the only thing the grave spirit really has going for nicodem is that itself has 3 crows for use with magical extension which makes getting fog or a healing intended decay targeting a friendly easier than the vulture with its static 2 CA, no suit. Then again, with the bird i just need to companion Nicodem, and then move my obscene 10 wlk, and then Eyes and Ears, and i just got another 10+ inches of threat out of decay, fog, etc.

The only thing that stinks about vultures is that they are most useful in pairs, and that makes them costly for a straight up support totem. Still, you can have one on casting monkey duty, and another on body collection duty, which frees up models to go and do the fighting for the net cost of a belle or crooked man. 4 points is cheap when you figure its 2 mobile corpse tokens, and its mobile casting extension for nicodem and token collection.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Haight

[Zee]

Personally, with my playstyle I'd prefer the spirit, due to the fact that I run a block up the center. Especially because you can use Mindless Zombies as Decay Grounding points to drop the Blasts into combat.

As it stands, I can understand the useful nature of the arc-nodes that are the vultures. I may purchase both, and then simply switch depending on the nature of the game. I think scenarios also make it a difficult choice.

[gregdorf]

Has anyone tried using any of the outcast totems with Nico?

[Sushicaddy]

Vultures. At first i was going to go with grave spirit, but then i realized that his little avian friends can use themselves as a focal point to cast fog, requiring 6 Masks+ to pull it when nicodem casts through them after a use of eyes and ears.

Which means it's very possible to have 3 castings of Fog, which creates a gigantic swath of cover production.

huh. I never thought of this.... that really improves the usefulness of the vultures. I'm waiting on punk zombie card that was missing from my Nico box to start playing him, but this is an EXCELLENT idea. Combine this with the possibility of grounding decays though them, along with the fact that the collect corpse counters AND generate them when they are killed, these vultures might really be nicodem's 13-in-the-hole.

I will try them along with the grave spirit, and see which one I like more, but Vultures are looking up.

[Werecat]

Is that allowed? I guess I don't see why not, i've just never thought of that...

But anyway, maybe the usefulness of the outcast totems eludes me, but I don't see what the Malifaux child and student of conflict really have to offer.

Edited October 5, 2009 by Werecat

[nilus]

Is that allowed? I guess I don't see why not, i've just never thought of that....

Yep as I believe they are mercenaries.

[thewartoad]

without reading the rulebook

I thought vultures could land in impassable terrain due to 'Perch'? (or some similar ability)

Well...all of us have read the book to understand & use the rules...not sure why you said that? I know they can "perch", I guess I actually meant the possibility of it's activation ending due to impassible terrain.

And my hat off to you if you have memorized the rulebook...I on the other hand have a lot on my plate with other games/miniatures as well. Cheers!

[gregdorf]

Is that allowed? I guess I don't see why not, i've just never thought of that...

But anyway, maybe the usefulness of the outcast totems eludes me, but I don't see what the Malifaux child and student of conflict really have to offer.

Well my thought was the Student of Conflict, I was thinking if you could time the assist action at the best possible moment you could get your punk zombies to make 4 melee attacks while boosted by the bolster undead, but that could just be overkill.

I really do not see the Malifaux Child working out well with Nico.

[ork56]

Well...all of us have read the book to understand & use the rules...not sure why you said that? I know they can "perch", I guess I actually meant the possibility of it's activation ending due to impassible terrain.

And my hat off to you if you have memorized the rulebook...I on the other hand have a lot on my plate with other games/miniatures as well. Cheers!

LOL, no way have I memorised the rulebook, I had read about vultures the prev night and something stuck in my mind.

I understand more your original point now, in that although they can land in imp terrain, their activation would then finish, rather than they couldnt get into imp terrain in the first place.

and the reason I mentioned not reading the book, is that on some forums, if you say something from memory that doesnt match the rules exactly, then you get flamed - this place doesnt feel like that, but Im new here.

[Haight]

Has anyone tried using any of the outcast totems with Nico?

Sorry for the length of this: TL;DR version - the outcast totems are really good. Anyone that knows me from the WM boards will know that I have a penchant for writing a lot about wargaming.

-----

Tried the student of conflict - i wasn't really a fan. Having "fast" was cool for an extra decay or reanimator, sure, but i'm not convinced it was worth 4 points - and it gets hard to give your master or other piece fast and have the student keep up with action.

But that's based on one game - i definitely want to test it some more.

RE: Outcast totems - Make no mistake, they are very, very good.

The student of conflict is VERY wisely priced at 3 points (which means 4 for non outcasts), and is incredibly useful for masters like sonnia who would love nothing more than one more opportunity to sling out flame burst.

Note too that "assist" is "target model". That's huge, and I think in further testing is going to prove really pivotal in the student being a very good potential choice for any list.

Let's look at some interactions:

With a flesh construct you could use assist to cancel the slow condition of the construct without having to ditch a card. If you don't mind ditching a card, but don't have a joker, you can use assist to give the thing fast, and then you will have 3 available actions, with a follow up move or move+attack per his rules. That makes a flesh construct a very fast and mean melee beater.

Bete Noire - If something doesn't die within 3" of her, you can still "fast" her. I think we all know how asininely good a fast bete is.

Punk Zombies - You could walk + flurry, or flurry + attack, or slice and dice three times (gross against low def models).

Belles: This gets horrid quickly. You could potentially lure something 3 times with CA 8, all suits filled. Let that sink in. A walk 4 model just gave up 12" of counter-threat range for your stuff with help from the student. This is one of my favorite uses, frankly. I know people might say "Well why not just get another belle". Well if you're not playing seamus or sybelle, then the student offers you companion to your master, and there's a whole list of stuff that can also get assist.

Crooked Man: Walk once, and lay down two shafted markers. That's some serious board control. Alternatively, walk and toss two cave ins, or toss three cave in. This also gets pretty sick quick (aside: Is the lack of a resist attribute in the crooked's man a typo? Has to be. Otherwise those things are silly good for 4 points).

In my one game i had some issues keeping the student up with nico, but that's because i started using assist out of the gates, which was silly - i should have waited a turn, and then would have been in a better position. If you're like me and like to use nico as a corpse swiping via vulture, decay monkey, and casting other spells in the rear as able, then the student really helps out nicodem. It can equate to 4 actions for him, which with vultures, can mean a gigantic arsenal of decays, rigor mortis, or reanimator, with an action or two to spare for fogs. I have a hunch i just used the student poorly in my first game.

Note too that the student has the ability to remove insignificant from models, which is pretty useful in scenario play. Camp a model on an objective, and keep him safe with fog, and then with one of your last activations use the students 10" total threat on Combined Efforts to remove insignifcant from the piece, and turn it into a scoring piece. Handy - particularly with fast models like canines.

The students melee is straight up average in comparison to other totems, and magical extension with 3 CA no suit is questionable for ressers, but its not without use - and note that with magical extension you are able to use a soulstone, so technically speaking, in hail mary situations, you could use a soulstone to change the starting total.

MCM: Dissection - makes the student potentially dangerous if you can miracle up a 12+ Crows. You can turn the student into a potentially deadly melee threat with this against lower defense models. Ditto with rancid transplant. I'm not suggesting you want your student in melee, but with all the other stuff it does, its at least an option.

More importantly is Wracked with Pain. With range 12 and requiring 9+ Crows, this is another good option - prevents 0 actions and gains McM a body part. Very very useful if the student isn't in a position to use assist. Note too that if you're hoarding body parts to use the student can give McM fast without having to ditch a body part.

Nico: Nico's got a rough spell list for the student, really what he offers nico is assist and combined efforts. Still, you can get a low casting total decay (requiring 11+ crows to throw). The best use here is fast on a member of the crew, including nico if you're hanging back, IMHO.

Seamus: Already fast, so not much use there, but we already covered how sybelle or belles becoming fast is just nightmarish. Seamus also has a slightly more accomodating spell list than Nico, but not as much as McM, though Seamus is arguably a little more user friendly for the student than McM's.

Face of death - requiring 11+ crows for the student, but creating a 4" terrifying 14 aura. That's kinda hot against opposing melee centric lists.

Live for Pain requires 11+ crows and gives the student a credible short range threat that can also heal him. The healing isn't too useful as anything that gets a bead on the student is likely to kill him anyhow, but this makes for a good, short range coup de grace your opponent may not see coming, particularly late in the turn.

U. Psychosis: Interesting. Hard to pull off, requiring 12+ crows, but if you choose your opponent wisely, a low WP model may have a rough time resisting a casting total of 15+ (or at least cheat away a good card to do so, which is in and of itself a victory). This is a really nice way to force your opponent to ditch good cards to beat the cast, or face a melee model that can't get up close an ugly with your melee stuff, and if you move to engage, MUST move away when it comes their turn. If you can get the casting total off against an as of yet unactivated melee model, this is a nasty scenario to put an opposing model in.

So the student is really quite good, even for its hefty cost of 4. Frankly i think its one of the most powerful totems, all things told, probably up there with the Brass Arachnid with the right Ramos build and the ever present hollow waif with leveticus (because, let's face it, the waif is what let's leve do what he does, which is murderinate things from range and in melee while self-recycling. Design wise, I think its an incredibly smart move to disallow Leve from having a student, as a fast leveticus would be broken - capable of walking for free, and taking up to 4 actions, one of which must be a cast).

The malifaux child has the same rough casting hand that the student does, but is less expensive. Where the child comes into play is in situations where you know your opponent has discarded a hand full of garbage to re-draw. You can make him have to re-take those cards into his hand at the expense of one he drew.

Conversely, early in the turn did you just burn a big money card or two (say, red joker, or a suit you need 12-13?) ... then you can use the child to get those back and get rid of garbage cards.

The child is all about 1 thing - deck manipulation for you and your enemy. That's it. When you start realizing that you can mess with people's hands and that might impact how they play (and note too that i'm pretty sure that people's discard piles are "public knowledge", meaning you can inspect them - have to double check, but i'm almost positive on that).

The child is probably much harder to use than the student, but i have a sneaking suspicion that played smartly, and with a bit of luck, it can be a bigger clinch piece. Maybe not always, but deck manipulation is very useful to ressurectionists who have little deck manipulation to begin with.

The key to using the child is keeping a tally on when you plan to activate your child, and what is in the bottom 1-2 cards of both your, and your opponents decks. I personally like to use the child to recycle really good cards that i burn early back into my hand at the expense of garbage cards.

-- haight

Edited October 6, 2009 by Haight

[gregdorf]

nice write up.

[Borthcollective]

In my one game i had some issues keeping the student up with nico, but that's because i started using assist out of the gates, which was silly - i should have waited a turn, and then would have been in a better position. If you're like me and like to use nico as a corpse swiping via vulture, decay monkey, and casting other spells in the rear as able, then the student really helps out nicodem. It can equate to 4 actions for him, which with vultures, can mean a gigantic arsenal of decays, rigor mortis, or reanimator, with an action or two to spare for fogs. I have a hunch i just used the student poorly in my first game.

-- haight

Can you do this? Aren't both of these totems?

[TheBugKing]

Excellent write up Haight. Thanks for posting.

[Pseudokinetic]

(and note too that i'm pretty sure that people's discard piles are "public knowledge", meaning you can inspect them - have to double check, but i'm almost positive on that).

can't look through or change the order of any discard piles

(pg 34 for quick reference)

[Haight]

Can you do this? Aren't both of these totems?

Sorry, should have been more clear - my point was relative to the playstyle, not having two totems (and that is not clearly indicated).

What i meant as if you're like me and like to play nicodem in the rear with the gear as a decay healing /blast damaging tosser / reanimator / arise-ing monkey, then the student may have worth over two vultures to you, as it gets you another cast which can mean more opportunities to heal and damage, summon stuff, get zombies, and by proxy with decay, potentially force discards for your opponent and draws for you.

@Psuedokinetic - Ah, oh well. Knew you couldn't change the order, but if you could look through that would have made him offensively more appealing. Well, look at it this way, the child is still quite useful for use on your own stuff to discard less than ideal cards for high value / desireable suit / both cards back into your hand. If you, early on, toss a bunch of high value cards on things then you know that they are in your discard - so 1-2 actions to get them back can mean that you increase the quality of your hand significantly. Bonus ? As Combined Efforts is a spell, you can auto fail the resist and make sure it goes off.

Still a good piece for ressurectionist resource management. The more i think of it, the more i keep thinking there's got to be a combo that breaks this for ressers. I just haven't found it yet.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Haight

[Zee]

I've looked at those vs the in faction totems, and I feel like the outside usage is interesting, but lacks some of that in faction love given by the totems. Nico gets arc nodes, Seamus gets another blunderbuss of power, McM gets cheap body parts. I think those costs are just a little too high for losing those effective totems in faction.

But great write up, buddy.

[Angus Khan]

I've looked at those vs the in faction totems, and I feel like the outside usage is interesting, but lacks some of that in faction love given by the totems. Nico gets arc nodes, Seamus gets another blunderbuss of power, McM gets cheap body parts. I think those costs are just a little too high for losing those effective totems in faction.

Agreed, most of the time the in-faction totems have enough faction love to make them worth it.

[thewartoad]

LOL, no way have I memorised the rulebook, I had read about vultures the prev night and something stuck in my mind.

I understand more your original point now, in that although they can land in imp terrain, their activation would then finish, rather than they couldnt get into imp terrain in the first place.

and the reason I mentioned not reading the book, is that on some forums, if you say something from memory that doesnt match the rules exactly, then you get flamed - this place doesnt feel like that, but Im new here.

It's all good Ork! You're right, this is a great community forum and we should help out or get help when we need it. Cheers!