What makes Teeth competitive?

[TheBugKing]

Wait... You Draw two cards for every model you have with that ability? I was only drawing two period, regardless of how many with the ability (Som'er Teeth and/or Whisperers) I had in range. So I've been shortchanging myself cards?

Yes.

[dboeren]

Sounds pretty good, I'll have to test this out.

[n0signal]

This has been an interesting thread to read, as I decided (perhaps foolishly) to pick up Som'er Teeth's box set as my initial Malifaux crew; mainly because I loved the flavour and aesthetics of the models and because they sounded fun to play. Of course, then I've read all over the place that they'll get "LOL-PWNED" by some of the other Crew boxes and I was getting a little anxious.

Anyhoo, the list I'm gonna probably be starting with, to get me up to 25SS (so that I can play a decent game against my friend's Ortega box) is the following:

- Som'er Teeth Jones

- Bayou Gremlin

- Bayou Gremlin

- Hog Whisperer

- Warpig

- Piglet

- Piglet

This leaves me with 2SS for the game, the same as Perdita's cache. Is this list any good? It'll leave me three Gremlins (due to a mispack) and two Piglets off the board to bring on with spells/triggers/whatever.

[sprue]

I'd drop the piglets and take another hog whisperer. On the first turn you can make two piglets out of one gremlin and then turn one piglet back into a gremlin with the whisperer if you really want one. I think piglets and warpigs are the way to go because your whisperers can heal them so you can take advantage of reckless fast, but gremlins are good as well since you can kill them and draw cards.

Also you can squeeze in a mozzie. I think it's really important that you force your opponent to discard his control cards. Gremlins have fairly low stats so you want to be able to cheat fate but keep your opponent from cheating as well.

Edited September 19, 2009 by sprue

[tor gaming]

Outstanding thread.

I think you guys have just persuaded me to do Gremlins for my first faction.

[n0signal]

I think you guys have just persuaded me to do Gremlins for my first faction.

I've just bought a load of Gremlin stuff off you, so you might be down some stock there. LOL. Great service at Tor BTW!!

[tor gaming]

lol, indeed, we are pretty much down to singles of most things now.

Thanks for your kind words on our service, we aim to please.

[sprue]

Here's a 35ss list I came up with based on what the gremlins do best

Som'er Teeth Jones

3 hog whisperers

warpig

2 giant mosquitos

3 bayou gremlins

This list does a few things very well in theory and I plan to test it soon. Basically with mozzies, gremlins, hog whisperers, and Jones I can turn the miniatures at my disposal into other miniatures. Each time this happens a miniature usually dies or gets sacrificed and if this is done within range of Jones or a Whisperer (as long as it's a gremlin) I get to draw cards.

So I can make more gremlins, and as I posted earlier it allows me to draw a huge amount of cards.

Another benefit of a gremlins list is the ability to stall and make your opponent activate his models first, allowing you to react to his actions. This is really useful in the first 3 turns of the game as models are still trying to close in and being able to see what the enemy does before you go is really advantageous. Do this by sacrificing one mozzie with the larva ability of another mozzie. Not much is lost by doing this (one is now slow) and it then goes back to your opponent to activate one of his miniatures. Additionally, if your mosquito was sacked in range of Jones or a Whisperer then you just got to draw 2 cards.

Mosquitos can go back and fourth sacrificing each other all day long and if you keep drawing cards you'll soon end up with your entire deck being drawn. But best of all, your opponent has activated his entire force (unless they can do something similar) and you can now start picking off enemies.

I need to brag about mosquitos some more. They're nasty pieces of work. You can also use the larva rule to move your summoned mosquitos about the table within range of each other and leap frog around the board an infinite number of times. It all comes to an end when you get within range of an enemy model and cast parasitic infection with the help of your massive control hand. A new mosquito has been summoned and the process continues unless your opponent plays a high card from their hand. I think it will almost never be the case, but in the right situation, (op. has no high cards) you can go around the entire board killing off the enemy. Again, the chances of that happening are very slim and using mosquitos this way will probably earn you a slap in the face.

Jones' Luck spell also aids our feeble gremlins by forcing the opponent to discard cards. Cast through some mosquitos your opponent will soon have no hand at all. When combined with other gremlin features you end up with a crew that can grow in numbers, cross the board quickly, consistently cheat fate with high value cards, drastically reduce opponent's control hand, and keep models healthy with healing flips. Maybe they can't do all those things at once but it allows a great amount of flexibility.

My question to all of you is what tactics and models would you use to beat this crew given that you might only have a few if any control cards and that I could cheat fate with a card valued at 11 or better every time.

[orius]

how do mosquitos allow card draws? i thought it was only dead gremlins?

[sprue]

mosquitos are gremlins!

[orius]

mosquitos are gremlins!

oh the other thing larva is an all action, you cant do it with a summon sickness model.

sorry bro.

[sprue]

slow is not an action. All actions are the only action you are allowed to take, they don't have an ap cost associated with them.

[orius]

no i think your taking advantage of a rule.

All is suppose to be all including 0 actions which means by the letter it would take both, ie 2, general actions and a 0

using a technicallity on a summon is not in the spirit of the rule and i am sure...so very sure it will be erratted!

so i personally hope your not actually trying to play people using that "loop hole"

[sprue]

I've already asked about it in the rules section and it is allowed.

The rules very clearly state what an all action requires and what is not allowed. Nowhere does it say that a model must have more than one ap, only that an all action is the only action the model is allowed to perform. The reference to 0 actions is only there to make sure the reader understands that an action that costs no ap is still an action and therefore not allowed with an all action.

It is neither a loophole nor a technicality. The reasoning behind an all action is to make sure that certain actions cannot be used in conjunction with other actions which might have been obtained by a model's abilities or spell effects from other models. i.e., they don't want it to be combined with things like fast, melee expert,casting expert, or any other effect that offers extra ap. So based on these examples I have to say that it is not in conflict with the spirit of the rule.

I'd also appreciate it if you didn't question my integrity. Some people simply interpret the rules differently than you. I invite you to visit the rules forum and have your say on the matter. I do feel that rules should be based on the direct interpretation of printed rules and not drawn conclusions so until an errata is produced which changes the rule the rule will stand.

I also want to reiterate that this is not a game breaking manoeuvre. Mosquitos can easily be pushed out of range of their target or killed (bete noire is an excellent way to stop this). There is no shortage of powerful and effective models available to all factions. It's up to each player to recruit wisely and play with cunning if they want to win.

Edited September 23, 2009 by sprue

[n0signal]

Eek, lets not get the poor Gremlins errata'd before they've even got going! LOL. They're already considered to be a bit "underpowered"; I'm having my fist little test game with them this weekend tho so I will see for myself. Either way, they seem very fun to play, which is what I'm mainly after.

EDIT: On a side note, I was sticking my War Pig together last night and noticed that inside the model it is written: "Pork Chop Express" and underneath "Squeal like a pig!" It's little touches like this that make Wyrd such an awesome company.

Edited September 23, 2009 by n0signal

[PhoenixEnvy]

Sprue - While I don't see a need to question your integrity, or your interpretation of the way the rules are written, I would appeal to you to see the possibility that drawing your entire deck into your hand and moving two models with infinite activation and movement is not an intended feature. I encourage you to enjoy this until erratad, if you can do so without making your opponents miserable, which seems unlikely. While it may be legal, and may even be in the 'spirit of the rule', which is a bit of nonsense really whenever anyone uses that term, it is most assuredly not in good sports, and this is clear if you take a moment to consider the impact it will have on your opponent's playing of the game.

[sprue]

I've discussed it with a friend and I think the consensus is that it's pretty easy to kill one of the mosquitos and end the process. Once models close in with the enemy it's very likely that they will be killed before you draw much of your deck. We'll be testing it this weekend. I started writing a list of ways each faction can deal with mosquitos before they get out of hand but it got too long and I decided it doesn't need posting. Each faction has several ways to kill a mosquito once they've closed in (or in bete noire's case at any time) If you haven't closed in with your opponent then who cares if your opponent can draw a million cards. All the gremlin's spells will succeed but they won't be in range to do anything offensive to you and then the gremlin player has to discard all his cards and start over next round.

As far as my opponents' feelings are concerned, I have every faith that they will be able to deal with this tactic and provide a challenging and enjoyable game as everyone I've encountered thus far at our club is extremely intelligent and very experienced.

[WombatCowboy]

I think it's crazy you thought of this. I dont have my book handy (someone borrowed it ><) but if mozzies are gremlins than I dont see how playing this tactic can be competitive for some casters at all. Why wouldn't you just hide out of los wasting initiatives drawing your deck, once you get the red joker or the 13 (can't member the suit) and your opponent is out of activations chain mozzies to their caster and use the insta kill?

Ryan

BTW the totem you made was awesome!!

[amikulaschek]

Sprue,

All I have to say is BRILLIANT! I love it. And this strategy is not really using ANY loopholes at all. Everything is straght forward in the rulebook.

1. Mosquitoes are Gremlins

2. (all) Larva can summon an additional mosquito while sacrificing a friendly model (ie. a mosquito)

3. Survival of the fittest gives you 2 cards per sacrificed gremlin

4. A summoned model can activate the turn it is summoned

5. An (all) action can be used with a Slow action modifier

It's quiet the card-generating-move-all-over-the-board engine. Well done.

Now I'm not going to address the "spirit" or "intent" of the rules. Eric and his crew of testers/rules designers have used VERY specific language for this game (more so than any other game I've played in a long time), and this is too big to be just a loophole. They are either sitting in their rule designers forum saying "hey they figured it out" or they are saying "&%$#% how'd we miss that!?!"

Edited September 23, 2009 by amikulaschek

[cain]

Even the hungry rule will not prevent it as i first thought.

So i expect just a simple "Mosquitos are NOT gremlins" errata and everything is fine.

At least the card generating machine. The insect is still going anywhere it want to.

So as a second, change larva from (all) to (2) action and this crazy idea is gone completely.

Edited September 23, 2009 by cain

[Haight]

Sprue,

Now I'm not going to address the "spirit" or "intent" of the rules. Eric and his crew of testers/rules designers have used VERY specific language for this game (more so than any other game I've played in a long time), and this is too big to be just a loophole. They are either sitting in their rule designers forum saying "hey they figured it out" or they are saying "&%$#% how'd we miss that!?!"

Except that the combo is being looked at by development, per the thread "deck stacking" in the Ress'er section. Keltheos let the people talking about it in that thread know that the situation was being "looked into", but to continue conversation.

If this was 100% intended (and i'm not saying its going to get errata'd, though i'm betting there's a higher likelihood than not), they would have come out and said "no, this is meant to work this way".

That the "situation is being looked into" suggests to me that it may have been an unforseen situation, and that they are now evaluating the following -

1) if it works (pretty damn ironclad it does)

2) if it works as presented (again, pretty damn ironclad it does)

3) if its a balance issue

4) if its what they intended the models to do:

4a) If no, path of least resistance to keep intent of model design integral while stopping the balance issue with minimal disturbance to design intent. This could present many issues, some of which are not attractive (errata'ing something that wouldn't appear on the cards, which is never good in mini's games with game aids, errata'ing something to work a different way, etc - many options here), issuing that clarification.

4b) If yes, issuing that clarification.

My guess is that its currently being investigated by some people, and possibly even playtested out by some peeps.

No matter how hard you playtest something, the second you release it to the public, you subject it to more eyes and hands that will put every possible combination of things together in ways you never imagined - moreso than any group of playtesters can even in the longest design cycle. It's just the nature of playtest.

[n0signal]

Well, if they do decide to errata this then you'd also need to change Jones so that he can hire something else besides just 'Gremlins and Pigs' (maybe add 'Mosquito' to his list). That's the only reason the Mosquito has the 'Gremlin' attribute; otherwise it would be a 'Pig' and you could have other crazy shenanigans with it.

[nilus]

No matter how hard you playtest something, the second you release it to the public, you subject it to more eyes and hands that will put every possible combination of things together in ways you never imagined - moreso than any group of playtesters can even in the longest design cycle. It's just the nature of playtest.

Yep, no matter how much you test something, Someone will still find a way to break it.

[Ratsmitglied]

there are two possible simple fixes that I can see that would solve the problem without needing to change the mosquito from being a gremlin

1) Errata the summoning rules to state that 'Summoned models may not take an (all) action on the turn they are summoned)

2) Change the Larvae rules to state that 'this ability may not be used on the turn the model is summoned'.

I think that the first option is the easiest to implement, and a quick check of the rules suggests that none of the figures that are rely on summoning to get to the table have an (all) action, so I can't see there being any significant issues with doing this. I also think that this is supported by the fact that a model receives slow on the turn that it arrives, suggesting that the arrival counts as one of the models AP for the turn.

[sprue]

If they errata it I won't be too disappointed. Though as I've said before, I really don't think it breaks the game. I do hope though that they play test it very thoroughly. I'm playing a game this weekend and I'll be testing it myself so I'll let you know how it goes.