Tactica: Pandora

[Mach_5]

Any Pandora players out there using Insidious Madness from Rising Powers? Are they as amazing for Pandora as they look on paper?

Edited November 26, 2010 by Mach_5

[Aldyhide]

I've determined that Pandora is going to be the next fig that I purchase, since I already have Candy and Kade. I've been meaning to purchase a clamshell o' Sorrows too but just haven't had the funds. But, any way. Which totem should I choose. The Poltergeist is great when you need to give Pandy a distraction to get away or hurl various breeds of paranoid schizophrenia at enemies. Plus its mass pacify and tantrum both incur Wp duels, for all models within its radii. However its only rocking a four Ca, which pales in comparison to the PMs 5(Mask,Tome) and ability that gives you an additional card. So which should I go with?

[hendecatope]

Has anyone tried Leilu/Lelitu with Pandora yet?

[karn987]

Has anyone tried Leilu/Lelitu with Pandora yet?

Yup! All the details are in my tactica's on my experience with them =D

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15426

In short, they are amazing with Pandora. I have a hard time finding a reason not to take them (which usually only ever boils down to cost and game size).

[hendecatope]

Thanks. I just have the basic box right now and am looking at future possibilities and Leilu/Lelitu seems like a no brainer.

[GrandLeon]

I am not used to running Pandora yet, but she is slowly becoming my main. I have a few list written up for her, but I tend to fall into my balls out way of playing. Which works for the Viki's and Ramo's. (Obviously not the model himself) The reason I am going to run Pandora though is she seems to be the best crew on paper, and running Lilith as a secondary will do well.

I have had luck with Kade and Jack Daw list set ups. I am going to check out Lelu and Lilitu when I pick them up next week, but the list I want to pick up for the normal 35ss games around where I live is.

Pandora

Jack

Insidious

Coppelius

3x Sorrow.

Someone PM with thoughts and advice please.

[katatonic]

Note: The Link rule for the Sorrows has been changed in the Extra Errata. Several models can once again be linked to a single model.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10309

[HarkonneN]

Hi!

After I get some gaming experience with the dreamer, I decide to choose a second master, and pandora is an ideal option from many aspects, but there's a thing I can't decide on her.

So I saw that her main basic troop models are the sorrows, but I find these models very ugly (and their abilities has an emo feeling which isn't my style). I think I replace bruhuhu guys with insidious madnesses(they're just 1 point more than sorrows, so it's not a heavy investment in points), but is this a viable idea, to run pandora with madnesses, and completely without sorrows? I never gonna buy a sorrow model, so if you say "you need at least one of them with pandora" then I'll continue the search for the second master.

[karn987]

Hi!

After I get some gaming experience with the dreamer, I decide to choose a second master, and pandora is an ideal option from many aspects, but there's a thing I can't decide on her.

So I saw that her main basic troop models are the sorrows, but I find these models very ugly (and their abilities has an emo feeling which isn't my style). I think I replace bruhuhu guys with insidious madnesses(they're just 1 point more than sorrows, so it's not a heavy investment in points), but is this a viable idea, to run pandora with madnesses, and completely without sorrows? I never gonna buy a sorrow model, so if you say "you need at least one of them with pandora" then I'll continue the search for the second master.

Well you don't "need" sorrows with Pandora, but if you wish to go with her strong point and abuse Wp duels... they help a lot.

But this is not to say you can't play her without them. Madness is a great model and does a lot for Pandora but usually more in a supportive role then a core unit role. Im sure you could make them work though, their solid range ranged strike can be against the targets Wp so Pandora can help increase their damage through Emotional Trauma. The fact that they can lay out aura's of negative flips to Wp makes Pandora's life very easy and can help out a lot of your other models nicely.

Pandora's core list usually revolves around her and a few support units with the rest of the SS spent on damage dealers and other sources of Wp duels. Some good examples of this are Kade, Candy, Doppelganger, Lilitu, Madness, and Alps. But the core of the list is Pandora, her totem (if you want one), and generally Sorrows.

So they are a great model, but nothing can fill the same slot as the Sorrows because they greatly augment Pandora's damage and provide a lot of protection for her as well as Candy and Kade. But again, this does not mean they make or break her, they just help out a lot.

Also Pandora's theme is sorta emoish. She crushes you through the sheer wait of your emotion and misery. So if the theme of the Sorrows isn't for you, then you may not like her or the rest of her crew that much :/ Even her play style is this progression of inevitable doom that slowly spreads over your opponent.

Edited November 22, 2010 by karn987

[Mach_5]

Also, with doppleganger mimicking Pandora's Emotional Trauma, you really don't miss the sorrows' Emotional Stress too much.

[HarkonneN]

Also, with doppleganger mimicking Pandora's Emotional Trauma, you really don't miss the sorrows' Emotional Stress too much.

That's a good idea, and I just have a doppelganger.

I also speculate on that the madnesses can make more WP duels than the sorrows, so maybe I can make equal wounds as if I swarm the target with sorrows.

[Natty]

Sorrows are totally unnecessary in my opinion. I never take more than 1 and I have yet to lose with her (although I stopped playing her right before book two came out because I found her very boring when she makes everything fall back).

I'd strongly recommend taking physical damage minions to complement her Wp duels. If you start taking all Wp duel minions you are putting all of your eggs in one basket and risk facing a crew that you can't beat no matter how well you play. Pandora and the doppelganger will generate all the Wp duels you will ever need. Add on top of that insidious madness (I've never played with them but I'd probably include one if I played Pandora again) or a stitched together (seem awesome for the 4" obscuring) and you have more than enough Wp duels. You should fill out the list with Teddy/Kade or Silurids or any melee beatsticks that take your fancy.

Basically, take whatever melee minion you think looks the coolest. They all complement Pandora because what she needs (in my opinion) is melee support.

[Butters]

I'm liking the Hooded Rider with her. Night mode makes him a nice mobile screen and using pacify or mental anguish can leave a model exposed for a flurry especially if you have the Doppelganger to help with the initiative.

Also sneaking up Kade behind him can be fun. I'm waiting for my Lelu and Lilitu to come in, since a better chance of lure plus Lelu and the Rider will be bad times for those pulled in.

[karn987]

Yup, the twins + the Rider are a lot of damage potential and Lilitu's Wp resist spells give Pandora what she should have in every list, another source of Wp duels. Plus Lelu is one of the biggest melee badasses for his price. Add in some madness and stir till done =)

But I would avoid all melee minions unless your playing for a theme (or if you like that style of list) because you really are avoiding some of her best synergies. It will work some of the time, but it's sorta like using a loaded rifle as a club =D

[Natty]

But I would avoid all melee minions unless your playing for a theme (or if you like that style of list) because you really are avoiding some of her best synergies. It will work some of the time, but it's sorta like using a loaded rifle as a club =D

I always take the Doppelganger (that's a given), which, if the situation is right for offense, copies emotional trauma and a Wp based spell. The doppelganger can cause a lot of Wp duels. Also, I would probably take a Stitched together for the cover ability. He has more Wp duels too. That is plenty of Wp, the rest could be melee.

[karn987]

I always take the Doppelganger (that's a given), which, if the situation is right for offense, copies emotional trauma and a Wp based spell. The doppelganger can cause a lot of Wp duels. Also, I would probably take a Stitched together for the cover ability. He has more Wp duels too. That is plenty of Wp, the rest could be melee.

If you want to do it go ahead its going to work most of the time. Your 100% right, the rest could be and I've not disputed that ever. But you are not making use of her abilities to their fullest if you go to melee heavy. Many do fine with 90% Wp reliance and a single potent melee model (usually Teddy, Kade, or Hooded). Or better yet, one of the models that can nicely compliment your other abilities and still serve a melee role, like Kade and Teddy and also Coppelius and Lelu.

But we come down to your choice of style like I said. Her core abilities push for lots of Wp duels because each one will do whatever their effect is plus addition Wd loss. Self-Loathing is a great example of this as are Alp swarms. They are dangerous on their own, but put Pandora in the mix and you have truly devastating combinations. What focusing more on Wp can do that melee can't is put constant pressure on your opponent to pass every single duel. But what melee does that Wp focus can't is give you variety.

My point is that you gain more with Wp effects then you do with melee. You play Pandora for those Wp effects after all. But you also don't want to go 100% reliant on them as there are things that are good against them. I always say try to include 1 melee capable model at least or have ways of dealing with Wp resistant models.

Also perhaps I should clear up a what I consider a Wp focus model. Things like Sorrows, Alps, Stitched Together, and Madness are pretty much 100% reliant on wp duels. These are also support level models (except for Stitched who can serve as your main damage dealers) and should probably not be used to make up the greater % of your SS. Models like Teddy, Kade, Coppelius, Lilitu, and Lelu have some nice Wp effects or augment others effects and still maintain a high level of danger that does not rely on Wp duels. Melee focused models are those like the Rider who have no Wp based effects and really have no way of capitalizing on other models Wp effects. Those are the ones I think don't use Pandora's potential. You can pretty much trade in Lilith or Zoraida with those crews and get the same level of danger. But as I said and keep saying, if you find it fun do it 100% =)

Edited November 23, 2010 by karn987

[M_Ruckuss]

If you want to do it go ahead its going to work most of the time. Your 100% right, the rest could be and I've not disputed that ever. But you are not making use of her abilities to their fullest if you go to melee heavy. Many do fine with 90% Wp reliance and a single potent melee model (usually Teddy, Kade, or Hooded). Or better yet, one of the models that can nicely compliment your other abilities and still serve a melee role, like Kade and Teddy and also Coppelius and Lelu.

But we come down to your choice of style like I said. Her core abilities push for lots of Wp duels because each one will do whatever their effect is plus addition Wd loss. Self-Loathing is a great example of this as are Alp swarms. They are dangerous on their own, but put Pandora in the mix and you have truly devastating combinations. What focusing more on Wp can do that melee can't is put constant pressure on your opponent to pass every single duel. But what melee does that Wp focus can't is give you variety.

My point is that you gain more with Wp effects then you do with melee. You play Pandora for those Wp effects after all. But you also don't want to go 100% reliant on them as there are things that are good against them. I always say try to include 1 melee capable model at least or have ways of dealing with Wp resistant models.

Also perhaps I should clear up a what I consider a Wp focus model. Things like Sorrows, Alps, Stitched Together, and Madness are pretty much 100% reliant on wp duels. These are also support level models (except for Stitched who can serve as your main damage dealers) and should probably not be used to make up the greater % of your SS. Models like Teddy, Kade, Coppelius, Lilitu, and Lelu have some nice Wp effects or augment others effects and still maintain a high level of danger that does not rely on Wp duels. Melee focused models are those like the Rider who have no Wp based effects and really have no way of capitalizing on other models Wp effects. Those are the ones I think don't use Pandora's potential. You can pretty much trade in Lilith or Zoraida with those crews and get the same level of danger. But as I said and keep saying, if you find it fun do it 100% =)

What about coppelius-i like the look of him in the list, although I know you have to be careful as him gaining an eye also affects P, Kade and my Sorrows.

[Natty]

Things like Sorrows, Alps, Stitched Together, and Madness are pretty much 100% reliant on wp duels. These are also support level models (except for Stitched who can serve as your main damage dealers) and should probably not be used to make up the greater % of your SS. Models like Teddy, Kade, Coppelius, Lilitu, and Lelu have some nice Wp effects or augment others effects and still maintain a high level of danger that does not rely on Wp duels. Melee focused models are those like the Rider who have no Wp based effects and really have no way of capitalizing on other models Wp effects. Those are the ones I think don't use Pandora's potential.

Ahhh, there we go. I think that is the problem. You think of melee focused models as total melee and no wp while I was thinking about them in terms of models that are mostly melee and do/don't have some wp stuff.

I think things like the twins would complement Pandora amazingly since they have wp stuff on top of their melee potential. Same with a lot of the neverborn like Kade who have wp duels but mainly are based off physical stuff.

So when I say to avoid total wp based minions, I mean to avoid stuff like Candy, sorrows, and alps. Definitely do NOT avoid the hybrid wp/physical stuff.

But again, I'm not saying that the complete wp duel based crew wont win a lot of games. But it would be terrible to sit accross from, say, an army that is entirely composed of stubborn Ortegas and have to go against a defense stat of 8 for absolutely everything you try to do. Or a crew with a lot of immune to influence models, and if they take out Pandora or move her more than 12 inches away, you can't hurt those models at all.

So my advice is about always winning 100% of your games instead of winning 90% of your games. A small but wonderful difference.

[Zwergenkrieger]

Hi all,

today I played my first Malifaux game and let me say it´s quite a fun game to play! Well, I played with Pandora and while I can see what makes her a really powerful master, I´m kind of dissapointed by the Doppelgänger. Unfortunately I don´t have any clue what I can use it for to get the best out of him. Basically I used the Doppelgänger just for it´s negative flips on the opponent´s initiative, but that´s way too low impact on the game for 8 SS.

After a search on these forums I found a thread in which Natty and Karn discussed the "need" for Doppelgänger in a Pandora list and the following quote is the last post of that thread:

I think the point that we got messed up on this discussion is that the comparison between her and ANY other master is a tough one when talking about required models because Pandora is so powerful on her own. She will literally dominate most games by herself, which is something most masters cannot do. They need the help.

I think the doppelganger increases the power of Pandora on scale with how much daydreams increase the power of the Dreamer. It's just that she starts out so powerful, so who cares?

Let's use some completely arbitrary numbers with absolutely no scale or meaning to them:

The doppelganger takes Pandora from a 7 to a 10 and the daydreams take the Dreamer from a 4 to an 7. It's the same increase, but less noticeable because Pandora already starts out so powerful.

So to sum up: Karn is right, the doppelganger is NOT required to win with Pandora. I, however, think that it is an amazing model and Pandora should never leave home without it.

So, what makes the Doppelgänger being so amazing with Pandora? Just a few tactical insight may help a newbe who´s trying to get the most out of pandora.

Thanks in advance

ZK

[Ratty]

So, what makes the Doppelgänger being so amazing with Pandora? Just a few tactical insight may help a newbe who´s trying to get the most out of pandora.

Thanks in advance

ZK

Last game, I copied link from a Sorrow and attached the Doppleganger to Pandora, You then can copy Emotional Trauma from Pandora and every time they fail a Wp duel in 12" they take 2 damage. You can also copy Unhealthy relationship at which point any Sorrows touching the Doppleganger can use (0)mimic to also copy Emotional Trauma. It is very possible to get a stage with 2 Sorrows and a Doppleganger where every Wp duel lost by the opponent in 3" causes 6 Wds and any in 12" causes 4Wds a time.