Madness aside, which masters in the game do you currently consider the strongest?

[esqulax]

If we overlook Madness of Malifaux that has a ton of overtuned content, I feel like the game currently is at an extremely healthy place, where a lot of different masters have game and the meta can be very versatile. 

That said, what keywords do you currently feel are the strongest in the game? I personally have a very hard time answering this, when you can't point to some of the obvious Madness keywords. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

For me it'd be Perdita and Von schill. Those were the two that caused problems for balancing Balancefaux and led to banning all the MB versatiles to weaken those crews xD

[esqulax]

17 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For me it'd be Perdita and Von schill. Those were the two that caused problems for balancing Balancefaux and led to banning all the MB versatiles to weaken those crews xD

Yeah I have heard a lot about Yannic + Von Schill. I actually haven't played against it myself yet. On paper it seems strong, but a lot more fair than some of the things we had running around pre nerf. 

Is it the guild mage that  causes issues with Perdita? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, esqulax said:

Yeah I have heard a lot about Yannic + Von Schill. I actually haven't played against it myself yet. On paper it seems strong, but a lot more fair than some of the things we had running around pre nerf. 

Is it the guild mage that  causes issues with Perdita? 

Guild mage is just one aspect of the problem. Here is an example of perdita using her last action...

• Summon a nephilim hunter
• Take a free trick shot
• Family values to stun enemy
• Focus neph hunter
• Draw a card
• Discard a card for a por El on neph hunter
• Heal something with guild mage
• Heal something with guild mage 2
• Neph hunter to shoot to kill something with the focus
• Replaces into monster hunter, gives itself a free shot
• Shoots something with family values built in, hands perdita a focus
• Draw a card.

Everything she does is just way too efficient xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

Then the monster hunter activation:

• Shoot stuff, build in family values, draw card.
• A por El abuela to use focus to give Francisco an attack.
• Francisco attacks at Stat 8, gets family values to focus and draw a card (or just onslaughts for another stat 8 attack).

Those are two hyper efficient things you could do every game if you wanted to.

Head of the Ortegas provides so much card draw you can fuel whatever you need. Generally you try to set up as many activations with two family values triggers as possible to get two focus and two cards.

[Photon_Cosmonaut]

I personally think Zoraida is pretty strong (mainly because I faced Zoraida on Sunday) and got tabled by her crew. I am a very casual player and just started playing nephilim so I am still learning for sure. If anyone has some good advice against Zoraida I would love to hear it 😆 

[Fjord]

12 hours ago, Photon_Cosmonaut said:

I personally think Zoraida is pretty strong (mainly because I faced Zoraida on Sunday) and got tabled by her crew. I am a very casual player and just started playing nephilim so I am still learning for sure. If anyone has some good advice against Zoraida I would love to hear it 😆 

She is indeed very strong. Which version did you play against? Against the original I feel a big thing to remember is to never hold a lot of cards while Zoraida is burning through hers. Make is so that her bonus action is as even as possible, otherwise it can truly be back breaking 

[Trample]

On 3/5/2023 at 12:39 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Guild mage is just one aspect of the problem. Here is an example of perdita using her last action...

• stuff...
• Replaces into monster hunter, gives itself a free shot
• Shoots something with family values built in, hands perdita a focus
• Draw a card.

Does the Monster Hunter actually do this? The model replaces without discarding the upgrade, but does that actually mean it reattaches it? I'm not so sure. I think the upgrade just stays with the new model (not discarded) and doesn't technically attach. I not sure about as written, but should certainly be as intended. 

[Trample]

I do agree Von Schill is up there. Also Hoffman, Von Schtook, Mah Tuckett, and Youko. The delta between top masters and the next rung down is very narrow in this game. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

33 minutes ago, Trample said:

Does the Monster Hunter actually do this? The model replaces without discarding the upgrade, but does that actually mean it reattaches it? I'm not so sure. I think the upgrade just stays with the new model (not discarded) and doesn't technically attach. I not sure about as written, but should certainly be as intended. 

The replace rules say to attach summon upgrades (or how else do they get onto the new model), so that does appear to be the RAW. But even without it she's such a monstrous value engine once you get going.

It isn't uncommon for her crew to draw two cards in an activation that took two focused shots and healed 4 damage.

[Regelridderen]

I’m less concerned about the overtuned stuff and more about the weak keywords - although VS and Perdita could use a light tickle with a nerf bat. 

-

Dreamer1 hasn’t recovered from his past nerf. The idea that LD now only works to set up Stitched with severes is just… less than satisfying. 

Seamus1 still couldn’t care less about his Keyword, I’m down to fielding Bete, the rest is out, and although his title makes better use of them, playing a bubble doesn’t feel like Seamus. 

Somer - where’d he go? It was the best place for Barbecue in the Bayou, and he’s just gone. Make the Bayou Greasy Again!

-

Of course these new masters with their fancy chain effects is an abomination that should be dealt with, but some of the most iconic masters are not getting fielded, not because they’re bad Per se, but due to their mechanics simply not working. 

[esqulax]

On 4/16/2023 at 8:06 AM, Regelridderen said:

I’m less concerned about the overtuned stuff and more about the weak keywords - although VS and Perdita could use a light tickle with a nerf bat. 

-

Dreamer1 hasn’t recovered from his past nerf. The idea that LD now only works to set up Stitched with severes is just… less than satisfying. 

Seamus1 still couldn’t care less about his Keyword, I’m down to fielding Bete, the rest is out, and although his title makes better use of them, playing a bubble doesn’t feel like Seamus. 

Somer - where’d he go? It was the best place for Barbecue in the Bayou, and he’s just gone. Make the Bayou Greasy Again!

-

Of course these new masters with their fancy chain effects is an abomination that should be dealt with, but some of the most iconic masters are not getting fielded, not because they’re bad Per se, but due to their mechanics simply not working. 

I agree with those except Dreamer1. Summoning insidious madnesses is still rough for a lot of crews to handle and Nightmare as a whole is a very solid keyword. Not to mention Chompy

[Regelridderen]

3 minutes ago, esqulax said:

I agree with those except Dreamer1. Summoning insidious madnesses is still rough for a lot of crews to handle and Nightmare as a whole is a very solid keyword. Not to mention Chompy

It’s less a balance issue with Dreamer and more that his entire crew is centered around having a useless mechanic. You’re basically wasting time doing LD for little effect.

[esqulax]

23 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

It’s less a balance issue with Dreamer and more that his entire crew is centered around having a useless mechanic. You’re basically wasting time doing LD for little effect.

To be fair, it was also way too strong before, and the cards go into your discard, so you still won't see them for the next round. 

I don't know, I still prefer this version of dreamer. 

[Regelridderen]

10 hours ago, esqulax said:

To be fair, it was also way too strong before, and the cards go into your discard, so you still won't see them for the next round. 

I don't know, I still prefer this version of dreamer. 

Yea, it was absolute too strong before – at least until Malifaux got mad  – but no one says, it needs to be like it was.

You might eliminate the optional choice, so it was less optimised and still reliant on Stitched, or it could be a minion-wide arcane reservoir, it could even be something completely unrelated to card draw but with a crew synergy, like a 6" Stat5 Wp attack to give Distracted+X, or.. or.. or.. anything but "Take cards from shelf A to shelf B, then return cards from shelf B to shelf A, rinse and repeat.".

[esqulax]

4 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

Yea, it was absolute too strong before – at least until Malifaux got mad  – but no one says, it needs to be like it was.

You might eliminate the optional choice, so it was less optimised and still reliant on Stitched, or it could be a minion-wide arcane reservoir, it could even be something completely unrelated to card draw but with a crew synergy, like a 6" Stat5 Wp attack to give Distracted+X, or.. or.. or.. anything but "Take cards from shelf A to shelf B, then return cards from shelf B to shelf A, rinse and repeat.".

I feel like it is not quite as bad as you make it out to be. It is more. 

Take a bunch of crap from Shelf A and put it to shelf B. Then after one whole round with less crap on your shelf, but half of the crap back. 
 

[Regelridderen]

3 hours ago, esqulax said:

I feel like it is not quite as bad as you make it out to be. It is more. 

Take a bunch of crap from Shelf A and put it to shelf B. Then after one whole round with less crap on your shelf, but half of the crap back. 
 

So you feel it makes a difference in your games? That’s nice, I don’t.

Do you go through your fate deck multiple times in a turn, so you get the effect of a thinned deck? I rarely do so, not with Nightmares.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

So you feel it makes a difference in your games? That’s nice, I don’t.

Do you go through your fate deck multiple times in a turn, so you get the effect of a thinned deck? I rarely do so, not with Nightmares.

It goes to your discard after shuffling the next turn, so you always get one turn without it in the deck.

But agree it feels like a terrible fix xD

[Azahul]

To me the issue isn't that it feels too weak, it just feels like too much accounting for the end result.

 

I wonder if a better nerf may have been just to take Lucid Dreaming off of Daydreams and call it a day.

[SEV]

The best fix imo : at the end of turn dreamer take X damage where X is 1/2 weak cards removed from the game 

[Regelridderen]

I think, I derailed the discussion. I'd leave it to the designers to be creative about fixing Lucid Dreaming – like it was a priority. 

Besides, with the current direction of the game, and the rise of a need for a BalanceFaux format etc., I wonder if we aren't coming to an end of M3E and we can look forward to a re-worked M4E version soon enough. We might see less of summoners, maybe have Dreamer/Chompy do their old switcharoo like in the days of yore.

[Math Mathonwy]

I very much doubt that M4e would come this Gencon and that means that something else will come in Gencon. A new faction? A new set of titles for everyone? 

I dunno, maybe it's just a campaign system and a new model for every keyword or something.

But can you imagine balancing all of the profiles for M4e? That will be absolutely insane.

[zeno]

I hope they at least announce M4E and cut down on the mess.
This game is suffering from severe model bloat and sometimes feels more complex than it really needs to be.

Hopefully the reason we're seeing these unbalanced releases is due to the team working on the new versions for the new edition.
Also I'm not expecting them to re-release everything at once.
A steady trickle would suffice.