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Replacement of multiple models.


Molly
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I often still struggle to understand how certain dynamics work. Now some rules have also been changed: For example; I remembered that two Coryphee, one of which activated, the Duet could continue the activation of one of the two. It is now stated in the rulebook that if one of the original models has activated, the new model will be considered as activated. What is the official version?

I also saw a battlereport, where someone used Hamelin, I didn't understand much. How does the replace of multiple Rats officially work?

I saw a Rat King with a lot of actions, is it possible? Furthermore, the Rats  was replaced with some were activated and some were not...
 

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The replace rules have been erratad ( at least once) so an important thing is to check you are using the latest rules. ( so the most recent errata). 

The Duet replaces as part if the activation of one of the Coryphee,  and then continues the activation.  (As stated in step7). That has always been the case and still is. 

 

There are 2 ways for the hamelin rats to replace,  the first is as the activation of one of the rats, so the rat King will continue that activation as stated in step 7. The other way is if the rat is somehow allowed to take the tangle together action outside its activation. ( such as obey or unclean influence.) There is a school that thinks if all the rats that are removed are also allowed to take an action because of unclean influence, the rat King has all thise actions to resolve. I don't think that is right, but it is regardless of it counting as activated or nit. 

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@Adran many thanks.

I take this opportunity to ask you a question more about the translation than about the rules (and i apologize, but the manual in my language has not been translated correctly and this often creates confusion)

step 7 says: "If any original model (s) had activated, all new models are treated as having activated etc etc"

does that "any" mean only one model, or each model?

because if it means only one model, it seems strange that a Duet can activate with two remaining actions of only one of the coryphees (one activated and the other not)

Edit, another question please, always step7 says: "one new model instead continues that activation using anye remaining actions"

that "any" means clearly each actions..so it is plaisible to deduce that a rat king has a LOT of actions?

Thanks again. 

 

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Firstly the Duet does not activate. It continues the current activation. This means it doesn't really matter if you are counting it as activated or not.

In the rat King case for transforming using unclean influence it isn't continuing the current activation, so it doesn't get all the remaining actions. 

You appear to assume models have 2 actions.  It's more the case that each activation limits them to 2 actions. So it doesn't really matter how many models were combined together, the model is only allowed 2 actions ( unless it is the leader or a master) during the activation 

Edit_ to answer the actual questions you asked.  

If any one or more of the models that is being replaced counts as activated then all the models that are replacing will count as activated.  

The any actions remaining refers to actions remaining in the action limit ( Page 21)

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One important thing to remember is that a model does not count as activated until it is entirely done with its activation.

So when a coryphee duet splits, it creates two coryphee that do not count as activated. One of them continues the current activation, and at the end of the activation counts as activated.  Which will leave one unactivated coryphee that can reform.

That's how you get two activations out of one duet.

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If I can revive this one for clarity (to wrap my head around it), please help me get this straight.

Example 1:

Coryphee A and Coryphee B have not Activated at all.  One of them Activates and uses Dance Together to merge.  The new Coryphee Duet gets to complete the original Coryphee's Activation (two remaining Actions, but no Bonus Action).

Example 2: 

Coryphee A has completely Activated, doing whatever.  Coryphee B Activates and uses Dance Together to merge with Coryphee A.  Is the Coryphee Duet completely done now since one of its two Coryphees had already completed an Activation (first part of step 7 to Replace) or does it complete Coryphee B's Activation with two remaining Actions and no Bonus Action, since Coryphee B used the Bonus Action to initiate the Replace?  If the latter, where is the printed rule stating it?

Example 3:

Going the other direction, the Coryphee Duet splits into two Coryphees.  Coryphee A gets to finish the Duet's Activation while Coryphee B still has a full Activation to do later.

In 1 and 3, I only **think** I have this down, so please help a brother out.

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17 hours ago, MisterWerks said:

Example 2: 

Coryphee A has completely Activated, doing whatever.  Coryphee B Activates and uses Dance Together to merge with Coryphee A.  Is the Coryphee Duet completely done now since one of its two Coryphees had already completed an Activation (first part of step 7 to Replace) or does it complete Coryphee B's Activation with two remaining Actions and no Bonus Action, since Coryphee B used the Bonus Action to initiate the Replace?  If the latter, where is the printed rule stating it?

It doesn't matter that the new Duet will have the "activated" tag, it still continues it's current activation. As far as the activation process is concerned, the only time it matters if a model has activated or not is when you are choosing a model to activate.


You have 1 and 3 correct.

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On 1/14/2023 at 10:27 PM, MisterWerks said:

Example 2: 

Coryphee A has completely Activated, doing whatever.  Coryphee B Activates and uses Dance Together to merge with Coryphee A.  Is the Coryphee Duet completely done now since one of its two Coryphees had already completed an Activation (first part of step 7 to Replace) or does it complete Coryphee B's Activation with two remaining Actions and no Bonus Action, since Coryphee B used the Bonus Action to initiate the Replace?  If the latter, where is the printed rule stating it?

 

Santaclaws01 is right, the printed rule is in step 7. 

"If this replace occurred during an original models activation, one new model instead continues that activation using any remaining actions"

So step 7 tells you that if the replace happens to the model that is currently activating, the new model will continue the activation.  That is where the rules tell us that in this example the duet will continue the activation and be allowed to do 2 more actions. 

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Okay, let me see if I've got this straight now:

1) Malifaux Rats have a Tangle Together Tactical Action that allows four or more to be Replaced by a Rat King model.  If one of the Rats takes this Action during its Activation, then the Rat King will continue and complete that Rat’s Activation.  If Hamelin, during his Activation, were to use his Unclean Influence Bonus Action that says a Friendly Vermin model can take a non-Bonus Action, the player would have to check if any of the Rats involved had already completed an Activation.  If any of the Rats had already Activated, the Rat King would count as having Activated and would not be able to go until the following Turn.  If all the Rats involved had not Activated, then the Rat King would be able to Activate this Turn, all in accordance with the first part of step seven.

2) One Coryphee Activates and uses its Dance Together Bonus Action to merge with the other Coryphee.  Even if one of the two original models had already completed an Activation, this Replace effect occurs during the Activation of the other original model.  The Coryphee Duet is allowed to finish the original model’s Activation with two Actions remaining, but no Bonus Action since the original model already used it.

3) Later, the Coryphee Duet uses its Dance Apart Bonus Action to Replace itself with the two Coryphees again.  Since this Replace effect occurs during the Duet’s Activation, one of the two new Coryphee models continues the Duet’s Activation with two Actions remaining.  The other Coryphee may still Activate later.  If the second Coryphee were to use its Bonus Action when it Activates, it would be able to Replace both Coryphees with the Duet again and finish its Activation with two Actions as the Coryphee Duet.  Both of these situations assume the Bonus Action is the first Action taken by the player.  If the Bonus Action that merges or separates the Coryphees were the final Action taken during the Activation, the new model would be placed on the table only to end the Activation.

4) If another model were to successfully kill the Coryphee Duet after it had completed its Activation, the two new Mannequin models would be considered to have Activated and would have to wait until next Turn before they could do anything.  If the Coryphee Duet were killed by another model before it Activated, the two Mannequins that Replace it would both be allowed to Activate that Turn.

Right?

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On 1/17/2023 at 10:39 PM, MisterWerks said:

Okay, let me see if I've got this straight now:

1) Malifaux Rats have a Tangle Together Tactical Action that allows four or more to be Replaced by a Rat King model.  If one of the Rats takes this Action during its Activation, then the Rat King will continue and complete that Rat’s Activation.  If Hamelin, during his Activation, were to use his Unclean Influence Bonus Action that says a Friendly Vermin model can take a non-Bonus Action, the player would have to check if any of the Rats involved had already completed an Activation.  If any of the Rats had already Activated, the Rat King would count as having Activated and would not be able to go until the following Turn.  If all the Rats involved had not Activated, then the Rat King would be able to Activate this Turn, all in accordance with the first part of step seven.

2) One Coryphee Activates and uses its Dance Together Bonus Action to merge with the other Coryphee.  Even if one of the two original models had already completed an Activation, this Replace effect occurs during the Activation of the other original model.  The Coryphee Duet is allowed to finish the original model’s Activation with two Actions remaining, but no Bonus Action since the original model already used it.

3) Later, the Coryphee Duet uses its Dance Apart Bonus Action to Replace itself with the two Coryphees again.  Since this Replace effect occurs during the Duet’s Activation, one of the two new Coryphee models continues the Duet’s Activation with two Actions remaining.  The other Coryphee may still Activate later.  If the second Coryphee were to use its Bonus Action when it Activates, it would be able to Replace both Coryphees with the Duet again and finish its Activation with two Actions as the Coryphee Duet.  Both of these situations assume the Bonus Action is the first Action taken by the player.  If the Bonus Action that merges or separates the Coryphees were the final Action taken during the Activation, the new model would be placed on the table only to end the Activation.

4) If another model were to successfully kill the Coryphee Duet after it had completed its Activation, the two new Mannequin models would be considered to have Activated and would have to wait until next Turn before they could do anything.  If the Coryphee Duet were killed by another model before it Activated, the two Mannequins that Replace it would both be allowed to Activate that Turn.

Right?

That all appears to be correct.  But reading through your points, it seems to be easy to miss the fact that both the rats and the coryphee are in the same situations.  The only difference is that the rats combine using a non-bonus action and the coryphee combine using a bonus action.  If a rat king could turn itself into multiple rats, it'd have have the same scenarios.

[spoiler]

The rat life cycle can get "free" activations on its own because you can Swarm Together to form a Rat King and then make the activated Rat King perform Rat Problems to summon a Rat Catcher.  

[/spoiler]

If there was an effect that made the coryphee take Dance Together outside of their activation, then they would be subject to the same activation checks that the rats being replaced to form the rat king are going though.

It all boils down to two points:

  • If the replace happens outside of the activation of all of the models being replaced, if anyone has activated the end result has activated.
  • If the replace happens during the activation of the model being replaced, it doesn't matter if anyone else has activated.  You just choose one of the new model(s) to continue the activation and the rest of the new models haven't activated.
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