How to beat Witness (not a call for nerfs)?

[Adran]

As you can see  it specifies that the dropped marker generates the pulse, so its not a case of it being generated by wong, and  then changed to another model. ( I think you can be hit by your own shockwave as you aren't generating the pulse)

 

So I still don't see that faq as moving the effect of the pulse from 1 model to another, because that's not what it's doing. The new model is excluded from the pulse because according to the shock wave rules it is the object creating the pulse, and according to the pulse rules the object creating the pulse is excluded. 

That logic doesn't apply in Damiens case, he is still the object creating the pulse even if its range and los is drawn from somewhere else. It's still the case he couldn't draw line if sight through a friendly witness model to attack himself, because he is still the model taking the action and generating the effects.  

So still not convinced he can clean himself...

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

As you can see  it specifies that the dropped marker generates the pulse, so its not a case of it being generated by wong, and  then changed to another model. ( I think you can be hit by your own shockwave as you aren't generating the pulse)

 

So I still don't see that faq as moving the effect of the pulse from 1 model to another, because that's not what it's doing. The new model is excluded from the pulse because according to the shock wave rules it is the object creating the pulse, and according to the pulse rules the object creating the pulse is excluded. 

That logic doesn't apply in Damiens case, he is still the object creating the pulse even if its range and los is drawn from somewhere else. It's still the case he couldn't draw line if sight through a friendly witness model to attack himself, because he is still the model taking the action and generating the effects.  

So still not convinced he can clean himself...

So are you suggesting that if I have an ability that does something like "stagger all models within pulse 2 of the target", then the target gets staggered?

Typically these sorts of actions either say the target and models within pulse 2, or leave the target out so that it isn't affected.

EDIT: hidden bombs on mcmourning 2 as an example.

[Kharnage]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

( I think you can be hit by your own shockwave as you aren't generating the pulse)

Yep, you've got it. This is the core concept. The Shockwave happenstantially generates the pulse from the marker, Damian generates the pulse from Lohith. There's no verbiage in Shockwave definitions to make this unique to Shockwaves. 

[Adran]

 

16 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Yep, you've got it. This is the core concept. The Shockwave happenstantially generates the pulse from the marker, Damian generates the pulse from Lohith. There's no verbiage in Shockwave definitions to make this unique to Shockwaves. 

Except the bit written  in shockwaves where it says that the shockwave marker generates the pulse.

Wong does not generate the pulse from the shockwave marker. He is not drawing range and line of sight from the shockwave marker for the purpose of the pulse. The marker generates the pulse. 

Nothing says Lohith generates the pulse, even if  if he is being used as the spot range and line of sight it drawn from. 

If it was an attack action it couldn't target Damien because it was still an attack by Damien.  Its not an attack by lohith. 

The situation is different. 

It may well be that you can cleanse Damien with his own pulse, but I still don't think the Wong FAQ has any relevance to the situation.

Shockwavec is the only place in the core  rules i can find where something originates from somewhere else other than the relevent model, but that doesn't mean that every instance follows the same rules. 

 

[HomelessOne]

Witness Keyword really does look fun, ha.

[Kharnage]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Shockwavec is the only place in the core  rules i can find where something originates from somewhere else other than the relevent model, but that doesn't mean that every instance follows the same rules. 

 

Well Damian's Resonate Power, amongst many other "pulse originates from other models" effects, such as Thunderous Blow, Cryptic Message, or Quicksand, clearly intends to affect himself despite generating the pulse from someone else, in this instance, his target. He's the one "making the pulse happen", it's centered on someone who isn't himself, and I think the clear intent is that he is meant to be able to heal himself, and also his allies. Rasputina was playtested with the understanding that she was included in the pulse of December's Passage. There's plenty of "pulse from somewhere else, affects me" precedent. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Apparently Witness went 15-1 at the last big American tournament (with the 1 loss being to a Damian player that pivoted to Hoffman).

So uh... maybe we will be able to conclude broken sooner than I thought 🤣

Anyone from that event have insights into any of the tactics raised here?

[Jinn]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Apparently Witness went 15-1 at the last big American tournament (with the 1 loss being to a Damian player that pivoted to Hoffman).

So uh... maybe we will be able to conclude broken sooner than I thought 🤣

Anyone from that event have insights into any of the tactics raised here?

More specifically, Damian 2 went 9-0 and Damian 1 went 6-1, over two separate events.

Arcanists won the first, Guild the second. I don't have any first hand info, but it's on Longshanks: Masters Tournament and Grand Tournament

[James Dyson]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Apparently Witness went 15-1 at the last big American tournament (with the 1 loss being to a Damian player that pivoted to Hoffman).

So uh... maybe we will be able to conclude broken sooner than I thought 🤣

Anyone from that event have insights into any of the tactics raised here?

I took Parker 2 (aiming for mod 4 spam) into Damien 2 in round 2 of the GT.  It was Corner Guard the Stash.  I was attacker, and placed Damien into a deployment zone with a big severe forest covering most of the edge where he'd leave, and be in concealment.  

At the end of turn 1 Damien needed a single walk to be able to lure Mad Dog and drop 5 damage on him/4 on my Convict gunslinger.  

Top of turn 2, Damien killed Mad Dog and the Convict Gunslinger before I killed him.  This was due to burning g all but one of his stones with Convict Gunslinger and Mad Dog flipping moderates on him on negatives, with a RJ in the mix.

Without Mad Dog I was one or two points of damage away from killing Lohith with Parker (if I was Parker 1 I mightve done it).

I lost that game 1-5 because Lohith and Bella cleaned up Benny, Pearl, and the Emissary.  

I think if I leaned harder into the spam attacks it might've been a bit better, but I worry that I would've just lost more models sooner.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I just got a game in against Damian 2 with Yan Lo. It was my opponent's first time with Damian. I lost 4-3.

I think Yan Lo has some legs. There's lots of tricks to AP tax the crew which goes a long way. I attacked him on multiple flanks. I also went very aggressive so that he didn't have time to supercharge his configuration. I had 2 soulstone gamin dead by first activation of turn 2 (unfortunately couldn't kill both before turn 1 ended). By turn 4 I had him down to two House the Soul models, but that was so late in the game I'm not sure it mattered a ton. More relevant was the AP taxing I could do at tha point.

I lost, but I chose a bad scheme. If I had chosen a better one I might have tied.

My opponent made a lot more mistakes than I did, so that's not a good sign... But will keep testing Yan Lo. The superior mobility to pick apart his backline goes a long way, but this isn't a great GG for superior mobility.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, stunned (or slow) seem great because that one AP tax on Damian is actually pretty significant!

Didn't matter that he could just remove it, still costs an AP which is pretty great. The crew only has a few super valuable AP, so if you can negate that you're in great shape.

Hard to wound is also very good against the crew, although there's a lot of times when it isn't enough.

[Hawkoon]

Sounds like Twotania might actually be quite good against Damian 🤔

Of course you don't know that your opponent is going to play Damian, but I guess between Titania 1 and 2 you got some options against arcanists in general.

Edit: I thought I was in the neverborn section Oh, well...

[Peturd]

10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Apparently Witness went 15-1 at the last big American tournament (with the 1 loss being to a Damian player that pivoted to Hoffman).

So uh... maybe we will be able to conclude broken sooner than I thought 🤣

Anyone from that event have insights into any of the tactics raised here?

I just want to point out it was David Longtin (1st playing Damian2 mostly, plus Hoff2) and Cody Hiat (3rd playing Damian1 mostly I think). Both players who would definitely have been in the top tables regardless of master or faction. Both I believe are usually play testers (Cody talked about the crew on his podcast). Where as most of the players they were facing would have no experience against the crew. I WILL say, Witness seems like a crew that has a decent skill ceiling but a pretty low floor. So it's less of a hinderance to have never played it than it is a problem to have never played against it.

I'm not pretending that counters any points made so far or anything. Just tempering the conversation a little. I think it will be very hard to nerf Damian2 well without neutering him, but he probably needs a tweak. They did good with Ivan in my mind so they can do good again. I'm not sure how or what you change with Damian1 without fundamentally changing things ... and the fundamental core doesn't feel broken. It's just all the counters so far I've seen to the crew seem so much harder to pull off against Damian2 than 1. Like killing the gamin and support models is WAY harder when they can be so far back and the master can attack through them.

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Well Damian's Resonate Power, amongst many other "pulse originates from other models" effects, such as Thunderous Blow, Cryptic Message, or Quicksand, clearly intends to affect himself despite generating the pulse from someone else, in this instance, his target. He's the one "making the pulse happen", it's centered on someone who isn't himself, and I think the clear intent is that he is meant to be able to heal himself, and also his allies. Rasputina was playtested with the understanding that she was included in the pulse of December's Passage. There's plenty of "pulse from somewhere else, affects me" precedent. 

I'm not saying these are wrong. I'm not even saying that the conclusion is wrong. I'm saying that the rules for shockwaves specify something none of these do  so an FAQ about shockwaves is not relevant

There is a difference in wording from 

" the dropped marker generates a ..."

"all models within 2 of the target suffer..."

"This model may draw range and line of sight from ..."

And applying an FAQ that says if you use a model instead of a shockwave marker, the model is what generates the pulse and so not affected   does not automatically apply to every instance. 

For what it's worth I think type two will be able to affect the model with the text because they are making the target generate the pulse. ( and the fact some specify the target also duffers the effect does suggest the normal would be it doesn't)

I don't quite think I can use the same logic on type 3 because I know the thing that range is drawn from isn't generating the action in the case of things like attacking yourself and being in hazardous terrain, so I don't think it is spelled out anywhere that it generates the pulse so the acting model can be affected,  but then until now it was a situation that didn't really come up ( the nearest before would be could the model you drew los for a soul shock gain a parasite token,  and it already had to have a parasite token to be used and at risk. ). 

I'm obviously not explaining myself well as people aren't answering the points I thought I was raising, but instead are answering different points I didn't think I was making. So I'm leaving this conversation there. I don't know the right answer,  but I don't think the FAQ has the answer.  If you think it does, then that's fine.  Apologies for anyone who has been confused by this side discussion. 

 

[Yore Huckleberry]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I'm obviously not explaining myself well as people aren't answering the points I thought I was raising, but instead are answering different points I didn't think I was making. So I'm leaving this conversation there. I don't know the right answer,  but I don't think the FAQ has the answer.  If you think it does, then that's fine.  Apologies for anyone who has been confused by this side discussion. 

 

 

I think all the Wong FAQ does is remind us to look at the core rules for effects. If a Restore the Natural Order pulse comes from some other location and the pulse hits the model that generated the effect with an action, then that model is affected by the pulse. 🤷‍♂️

Another example is that a Kaltgeist can affect itself with Icy Winds if it draws the additional instance of a 2 range from an ice pillar (or a second Kaltgeist) within 2" pulse range of itself, and be affected by that pulse and take a move.

[Kharnage]

6 hours ago, Peturd said:

Both I believe are usually play testers

I know David didn't, I'm mostly sure Cody didn't. The larger issue in my mind is that in a tournament that motivates you to play the strongest thing you can play in every pool/matchup, they, in Arcanists, mostly or entirely just spammed Damian. It's not like they're unaware of the tools that other Arcanists have to offer, or were unable to bring different things, it's that these really great players sat down and said "if I want to win into these other scary/good players, Damian spam seems like my best shot". And it appears that that assessment was accurate. 
And it's not like they're famed one-trickers who spent months and months really honing their Damian skills, using the strength of their Ls to forge their Ws. They picked him up in the month beforehand and crushed it. There's no way to softball that, it doesn't look bad, it is bad.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't like to comment too much on specific players, but I believe David Longtin is basically the sort of player that always prioritizes playing the most busted thing. I don't know of him ever doing well in events except with things that deserve a nerf. So that's not a good argument IMO xD

Which can be a real asset, as he loves stress-testing things, which can help provide some guidance.

That said, the original intention was to focus on how to beat Damian with the tools we have, so I'm getting side-tracked.

[admiralvorkraft]

Again, I'd go with declaring your most condition heavy master to push them towards Unbound, then play wide to minimize blasting, and approach him the way you'd approach Leveticus. Kill the backline, kill the scoring models, try to waste their high-impact AP.

I have no idea how to beat Aspirant except to blow him up with focused guns ASAP.

[Kharnage]

2 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Again, I'd go with declaring your most condition heavy master to push them towards Unbound, then play wide to minimize blasting, and approach him the way you'd approach Leveticus. Kill the backline, kill the scoring models, try to waste their high-impact AP.

 

So my boy Doug played into David's Unbound with Titania2. For every turn that Titania was alive, he went for stunning Damian (as indeed, she has one of the rare triggerless stuns with a superior attack stat) and trying to separate out the crew, Into Thorns / Heaving Lohith away from Damian and almost killing Lohith. This meant that he couldn't cast Restore to remove his own stunned because he had no node to draw from.
It took Damian a little extra time, but he still just, consumed the crew himself. Doug even won initiative for most of the game which was important because otherwise Inkfingers on Marco just straight up forces him to drop his hand before the champion upgrades can discard to stay on. Which of course was helpful into Lohith, but was just strictly a debuff into Damian who now got healing and severe injury triggers against the Champions when Titania died and couldn't hand him stunned anymore. 
There might be a better condition heavy master to run into Damian than Titania2, but she's not far from the top, and she executed on the "keep him busy" plan to no avail. Not to say that it'll never work, but people, myself included, did try to go for his squishes and ignore the master, but it thus far has been an unkind experience. 
 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I sent Archie on one flank, and Yan lo on another.

Archie died, which left Yan lo to rampage his back line.

But I was only able to kill 1 or 2 models a turn this way, which wasn't fast enough.

[admiralvorkraft]

5 hours ago, Kharnage said:

There might be a better condition heavy master to run into Damian than Titania2, but she's not far from the top, and she executed on the "keep him busy" plan to no avail. Not to say that it'll never work, but people, myself included, did try to go for his squishes and ignore the master, but it thus far has been an unkind experience. 
 

I can't argue with experience. Just looking at the cards I think it's the approach that gets you the closest to making a game of it, but I've watched a couple of BadFaux Haku's videos and the amount of card draw/filtering is truly oppressive. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just beat Damian 2 on Cursed Objects (with Yan Lo).

Things that helped:

• Dance around his gameplan
• Kidnapping Lohith to an extreme degree (24 inches of movement over two activations)
• Getting an advantage and then running away (Yan Lo teleported from north east to southwest corner of the board).
• Stunning Damian still feels hugely worthwhile for that AP tax.
• Huge pressure on his models throughout the game, so he was forced to spend configuration resources keeping Lohith alive with infinite stones for example.

Overall, being able to outmaneuver his bubble as well as keeping him constantly spending resources defensively helped a lot.

I used the standard Archie/Vale/Chiaki/Sun build, but took two komainu this time.

I think using OOKs that line up well against his offensive tech seems really important. Although I'm not sure how many factions can put together a package like Archie (htw, terrifying, leap, health pool) and Valedictorian (htw, armor, stun).

[trikk]

How did you stun him in YL?

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, trikk said:

How did you stun him in YL?

Valedictorian I assume. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yup, Valedictorian for the stun!

Between her ability to survive his attacks and the stat 7 stun, she feels like a must. No card draw against him, but the ability to kill Marco or Miya in one AP is also pretty huge.