Witness questions (Probably relevant for others)

[Erik1978]

1: Well works for other models too: Drain Magic trigger, does that work on a target that dies? Does the target still have to discard a card? And do I still draw/discard myself?

2: A Dabbler has unexpected outcome: If I fail lightning strike or a flip for defence against a shot for example, that card is in the conflict and I draw the top card from the discard pile, correct? What if I then cheat fate, does that change which card is top of discard pile? I can't wait for Witness to play against EVS and get some weird discard pile headaches...

 

[Adran]

27 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

1: Well works for other models too: Drain Magic trigger, does that work on a target that dies? Does the target still have to discard a card? And do I still draw/discard myself?

2: A Dabbler has unexpected outcome: If I fail lightning strike or a flip for defence against a shot for example, that card is in the conflict and I draw the top card from the discard pile, correct? What if I then cheat fate, does that change which card is top of discard pile? I can't wait for Witness to play against EVS and get some weird discard pile headaches...

 

If a trigger has a target and the target is no longer in play the trigger has no effect. (Page 12 electronic rules). Nothing about do what you can, its a straight has no effect. 

 

Cheating will change the top card. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

#2: Most seem to play that once a Duel is resolved, the cards in the Conflict are discarded (the Duel is the effect which caused the flip). See this thread for more info: https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/154439-misaki-abandon-honor-and-discard-timing/#comment-1259963 

 

As such, the card in the conflict when the duel is failed would be the card added to your Configuration. Cheating would cause you to add the cheated card to your configuration.

[santaclaws01]

58 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

#2: Most seem to play that once a Duel is resolved, the cards in the Conflict are discarded (the Duel is the effect which caused the flip). See this thread for more info: https://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/154439-misaki-abandon-honor-and-discard-timing/#comment-1259963 

 

As such, the card in the conflict when the duel is failed would be the card added to your Configuration. Cheating would cause you to add the cheated card to your configuration.

This that happen "after" an event generally happen during the overall timing step of the event, such as things that happen after resolving an action still happen during the action resolution. "After" basically creates a substep and only once that is resolved is the main effect resolved. So for duels, anything that happen after failing/succeeding a duel would happen before the cards from the duel are discarded.

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

This that happen "after" an event generally happen during the overall timing step of the event, such as things that happen after resolving an action still happen during the action resolution. "After" basically creates a substep and only once that is resolved is the main effect resolved. So for duels, anything that happen after failing/succeeding a duel would happen before the cards from the duel are discarded.

 

I'd be inclined to agree if resolving a duel had a Step G for resolving "after" effects similar to how resolving an Action has Step 6. Also, there is this:

Quote

Most Abilities are passive and always in effect, but some occur as a result of another game effect. In these cases, the Ability will use the word “After.” These Abilities happen after the effect in question is resolved.

Quote

Once the effect that caused a card to be flipped is resolved, the card is discarded.

Unless there is explicit language to specify timing like Step 6, the duel is resolved once failure/success is determined. Since the effect (the duel) is resolved, the card is discarded. Finally, any "after" effects from abilities that trigger off of success/failure of a duel will resolve. I suppose maybe simultaneous effects could let the player determine if the discard or "after" effects resolve first, but that seems a little too gamey imo.

[Erik1978]

So you're saying that if you cheat to FAIL a duel, that card will immediately be dicarded and you add your own discarded card to the configuration?

[Jinn]

On 8/25/2022 at 1:02 AM, Adran said:

If a trigger has a target and the target is no longer in play the trigger has no effect. (Page 12 electronic rules). Nothing about do what you can, its a straight has no effect. 

 

Cheating will change the top card. 

Isn't the "Target" in Drain Magic referring to the action's target, not targeting it with the trigger? This rule would apply to stuff like Ricochet, a trigger that actually targets something.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Jinn said:

Isn't the "Target" in Drain Magic referring to the action's target, not targeting it with the trigger? This rule would apply to stuff like Ricochet, a trigger that actually targets something.

A trigger has a target if it mentions a target. 

[Jinn]

36 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

A trigger has a target if it mentions a target. 

Fair enough if that is the case, any rules reference for that?

If triggers inherit the target of their action, then wouldn't all triggers on actions with a target automatically have a target, even without mentioning it? Also leads to weird cases like My Loyal Servant not working if you kill the target.

Another problem trigger:

Bloody Fate: Draw a card. If the target was not killed, discard a card.

If this trigger is treated as having a target, and is not simply referring to the action's target, then you don't get to draw a card without discarding when you kill someone with it. Obviously not how this is intended to be run.

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Jinn said:

Isn't the "Target" in Drain Magic referring to the action's target, not targeting it with the trigger? This rule would apply to stuff like Ricochet, a trigger that actually targets something.

The trigger is referring to a target.  Therefore it is a trigger with a target. 

I can't give you a rules reference that says if something refers to a target it has a target.

Yes, this leads to a few triggers failing on the death of a model when you don't think they should. 

Bloody fate in particular probably needs to be corrected,  but if you look for triggers that only have a new target its pretty small, and if you try and make most of the triggers work on a model after that model is dead then you get into trying to do strange things. (Bloody fate doesn't actually do anything to the target, but it does check the state of the target, where as my loyal servant clearly can't work if the target is killed because when you go to heal a model the killed model isn't on the table so nothing is close enough to it to heal)

Most triggers don't mention target at all. But if the trigger says do something to the target, then I think it's pretty clear it must have a target.