Help my friends to choose their first Master

[Arko]

@Corn Thanks for the informations about tournaments, and I really like what you said in your last paragraph, and I totally agree with this.

The problem with my "magic" friend is that he had a huuuuge blast on the Lynch models aesthetic but not at all with all the other Masters in Ten thunders (except maybe Mccabe)...hence why this is a shame (for him) that Lynch is not in Neverborn anymore, as he likes the aesthetics of their versatiles . I wish for my friend that Lynch would be double faction, like Mccabe and co,  but anyway.

 

So that leads me to a question : As Lynch as a 2d version, do you think my friend can still do something and not finish last in every tournament with only Lynch 1 and 2?

[Corn]

4 hours ago, Arko said:

So that leads me to a question : As Lynch as a 2d version, do you think my friend can still do something and not finish last in every tournament with only Lynch 1 and 2?

I mean, we aren't talking about "finishing last" in every tournament.  Good play is going to be the biggest factor in the vast majority of circumstances, and the quality of opponents at tournaments can vary wildly depending on scale, and what the local community looks like.   You can do perfectly fine with a single master that you know inside and out.  

What we are talking about are little advantages here and there that add up over time.  Obviously like in any competitive tabletop game there is no "sure thing", but we do what we can to give ourselves the best odds.  Playing and knowing multiple masters in the same faction is one of those advantages you can give yourself in most Malifaux tournament formats.   Its also worth noting that collecting different masters within a faction can offer access to various out of keyword tech pieces- such as the Lawyers from Lucius' core box being one of the best out of keyword hires in the entire Guild... even if you never field Lucius in a competitive event being able to shove a lawyer into Sonnia or Dashel is dope.  

Your friend will still be able to win if he plays pure Lynch and nothing else.  He is just giving up one of the small competitive edges that is available to him, and any competitive player knows that those small edges do matter from time to time. 

That said, Lucas McCabe is dope master... I am still sad that Guild lost him.  

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Arko said:

@Corn

Thanks for the explanation about Lynch.

Noted for Hamelin, now he likes complicated gameplay, so that doesn't fear him

Yes, we have checked all those videos aleady

Visually speaking, he really prefers the Dreamer over Leveticus or Jack Daw, and same for my other friend, he doesn't really like the aesthetic of Perdita or Basse, thanks for the ideas though !

 

@Adran

Shame that Lynch didn't stay in Neverborn, as their versatile fits way more the aesthetics of his crew

Ok so no matter what, versatiles or OOK models will be there if you're looking for top competitive, noted !

About the rat list, my friend wanted to play all the minis that are in the "Hamelin core box", "Brotherhood of the rat", "Tainted filth" and "They all fall down" but that is it. Now, he would need to know more about the possible other models that he should have, because just putting a rat on a base could easily give that mini a rat theme if it doesn't already have a strong theme like the ten thunders for example. So outside of the boxes I just mentioned, what would a Hamelin 1 or 2 need?

Very good for Cooper, so my Gunner friend has found his faction, thank you !

About the tournaments, yes, when i said "when we feel ready", I meant when we will know the rules and our factions well enough to finish a game on time.

 

So now, only my magic friend is hesitating, it will depend on the models Hamelin 1 and 2 would need in his band. If they don't have already a strong theme, he will just put a rat model on their base and that is it. Otherwise, he will play the Dreamer.

 

On the Hamelin front, the rat stuff works best with Hamelin1 and feels a bit lacklustre with Hamelin2. I think you can get pretty far with Hamelin1 in the current Gaining Grounds though, and Winged Plagues getting buffed did a lot to reduce his reliance on Versatiles. I would still recommend checking out models like the Catalan Riflemen and (probably the top of the list) the Hodgepodge Emissary. These models drop scheme markers that Benny can use to turn into rats with his amazing "Loyal Rats in Tiny Hats" action, which can be pretty invaluable in guaranteeing Hamelin a stream of rats to use for his game plan.

 

Hamelin2 I find myself often reaching for OOK models to fill in my lists, and Benny and the rat models rarely make the cut. Sadly the Piper just doesn't have much reason to want the rat models beyond the occasional incidental rat, so Nix, the Wretch, the Disease Containment Unit, and Winged Plagues are all he considers hiring from his own Keyword. On the plus side for competitive settings it means the two versions run very different crews, making it harder to tailor against them, with Hamelin1 being a swarm with some bubble tendencies and Hamelin2 being a more spread out super friends style of play.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Arko said:

@Corn Thanks for the informations about tournaments, and I really like what you said in your last paragraph, and I totally agree with this.

The problem with my "magic" friend is that he had a huuuuge blast on the Lynch models aesthetic but not at all with all the other Masters in Ten thunders (except maybe Mccabe)...hence why this is a shame (for him) that Lynch is not in Neverborn anymore, as he likes the aesthetics of their versatiles . I wish for my friend that Lynch would be double faction, like Mccabe and co,  but anyway.

 

So that leads me to a question : As Lynch as a 2d version, do you think my friend can still do something and not finish last in every tournament with only Lynch 1 and 2?

If you are a good player you will end up with a winning average even if you have a restricted pool of models, so if they finished last at every event, it's probably not the master that is the reason. Skill makes a huge difference in the game, even while we talk about model power, that just is almost the tie break from people of similar skills.

 

 

Strange, I would have said the neverborn versitile was less thematic with lynch than the tt models, ( unless you use the alternative graves and tanner in nephlim and woe form). But then that's because most of the honeypot models are altered human rather than malifaux natives, so it makes story sense.

1 hour ago, Arko said:

Shame that Lynch didn't stay in Neverborn, as their versatile fits way more the aesthetics of his crew

[Arko]

@Corn : Thanks for the advices about the tournaments, so in the end Lynch is dropped as he really doesn't lke the aesthetics of all the other ten thunders stuff.

 

@Azahul : Thanks for the Hamelin breakdown, so Hamelin is out too, because he mostly wanted to play Hamelin 2 (he loves the mini), so if he can't play "full rats" and has to add too many OOK and versatile, that is a no-no for him.

 

@Adran : I am glad to hear that skill is that important in the game, that is rare nowadays in miniature game. That makes us want to play even more.

 

So now my friend is left with the Dreamer but...I play Pandora, so we have a problem as we didn't want to share the same faction...He is going to look at everything again, for the 100th time now 😅 (I advised him to look at ressers again, as they have lots of summoners).

[muraki]

24 minutes ago, Arko said:

@Corn : Thanks for the advices about the tournaments, so in the end Lynch is dropped as he really doesn't lke the aesthetics of all the other ten thunders stuff.

 

@Azahul : Thanks for the Hamelin breakdown, so Hamelin is out too, because he mostly wanted to play Hamelin 2 (he loves the mini), so if he can't play "full rats" and has to add too many OOK and versatile, that is a no-no for him.

 

@Adran : I am glad to hear that skill is that important in the game, that is rare nowadays in miniature game. That makes us want to play even more.

 

So now my friend is left with the Dreamer but...I play Pandora, so we have a problem as we didn't want to share the same faction...He is going to look at everything again, for the 100th time now 😅 (I advised him to look at ressers again, as they have lots of summoners).

Ha, back to the drawing board, I know that feeling trying to get into a new game....  I know there's been a lot of messages since the initial list yesterday, but I wouldn't worry too too much at this stage about OOK hires / aesthetic of those.  It obviously depends on your area, but as a TO I'd be perfectly OK if someone decided to play Lynch with a proxy emissary or samurai that matches the honeypot aesthetic more than the asian themed ones (and is clearly identifiable as what you're going for).  Some metas are more stringent than others (and the official tournament guide has guidelines on it), but with the release of titles / books coming out months before models do, my local group has gotten a more forgiving with proxies/kitbashes/etc. (actually played a game in a league with witness and my opponent was like 'oh you even got the models' and i was like yeah sure, they came out at gencon....)

I also play a lot of the keywords you initially mentioned nearly 100% in key and while there's be some harder match ups, a lot of keys have a hard match or 2 (and if there's no bad matchups, then I kind of think the key could use a tweak or 2, but thats me).

I can't remember from the initial posts, but are you expecting to mostly play with your friends?  Is there a shop nearby that has players / etc?  Are you going to do vassal / other online gaming options?  As if you're really just doing the 3 of you, getting some crews that play well with pandora could be a good idea or have crossover models with the pandora crew so you could share stuff / etc.

If you're doing pandora, an option that could be interesting would be performer, as there is that shared pandora / colette box so you'll have a colette model floating around (tho you'll have to share dorian), and Colette fits the speed/magic vibe relatively well.  Another interesting one could be Tara or Kirai, as you'd be playing incorporeal v incorporeal and both ignore terrain.

[dannydb]

Honestly if your friend likes "magic" arcanists are a decent shout, you have 2 summoners in raspy 2 and sandeep 1. Sandeep, colette, kaeris and raspy all are magical to some degree and and kaeris is a lot of fun which i know your friend was interested in. 

[Arko]

@muraki : Yeah that feeling when you spend 1 month to choose your army in a new game 😅

He doesn't really want to use proxies, as he likes things being clear on the table, plus, to jump on your question, we are planning to go in tournaments as soon as we can, that is why we are already looking for advices to buy the good things before jumping in, as we don't have illimited amount of money unfortunately. We want to avoid buying boxes for nothing.

I may change my Pandora and let him pick Dreamer if my friend doesn't find anything, I am less "difficult" than him and can switch to Ressers, as I like most of the casters in that faction.

 

@dannydb : Yes Arcanists fits his favourite gameplay, the problems are the minis, I noticed that in this game, the minis have so much identity and personality that either you love them or you hate them. That is his case in Arcanists. He only likes Raspy and Kaeris in that faction. Kaeris is still in his options, but not as high as the Dreamer. I think he needs to think for a few days, he spent so much time looking at the minis, reading all of you and looking at videos that he is going to have a burn out of Malifaux before even starting the game 😄

[muraki]

19 minutes ago, Arko said:

He doesn't really want to use proxies, as he likes things being clear on the table, plus, to jump on your question, we are planning to go in tournaments as soon as we can, that is why we are already looking for advices to buy the good things before jumping in, as we don't have illimited amount of money unfortunately. We want to avoid buying boxes for nothing.

Ah, I was asking cause if there's tourneys / players in the area talking to them / seeing what they play / getting a demo game of something youre 'on the fence about' may be a less brain-burney way to decide what you want to play than pouring over charts / graphs.

I'll also say that while Malifaux isn't 100% balanced, I really wouldn't turn anyone away from a master/keyword due to competitiveness concerns.  Some models / keys are a bit over / under 'the curve' but on the whole the keyword system / errata cycle has done way better job at making 'let me buy these boxes that match the master' playable in tourneys / etc than in 2nd edition.  There it was very much 'buy 9 boxes in the faction, each for a single model'.  I mean my meta is currently doing a 20 person single key fixed league with very little ook hire options and there's only 2 repeated keywords (plague and qi and gong).  I know we're not the most competitive crew, but I doubt I'll hear much complaining about the format.

If anything I'd be more worried if you were picking radically different crew types and only playing vs each other, as a hard hitting crew v a heavy schemer one, or a fast v a slow bubble one, can make for some unbalanced feeling games early on.  But if you have people who play / do tourneys nearby you should be able to hook up with a larger community so there'll be less of the 'wow did i just choose a crew that is aweful v my friends' and vice vera 

[Corn]

1 hour ago, Arko said:

Yeah that feeling when you spend 1 month to choose your army in a new game 😅

He doesn't really want to use proxies, as he likes things being clear on the table, plus, to jump on your question, we are planning to go in tournaments as soon as we can, that is why we are already looking for advices to buy the good things before jumping in, as we don't have illimited amount of money unfortunately. We want to avoid buying boxes for nothing. I may change my Pandora and let him pick Dreamer if my friend doesn't find anything, I am less "difficult" than him and can switch to Ressers, as I like most of the casters in that faction.

 Yes Arcanists fits his favourite gameplay, the problems are the minis, I noticed that in this game, the minis have so much identity and personality that either you love them or you hate them. That is his case in Arcanists. He only likes Raspy and Kaeris in that faction. Kaeris is still in his options, but not as high as the Dreamer. I think he needs to think for a few days, he spent so much time looking at the minis, reading all of you and looking at videos that he is going to have a burn out of Malifaux before even starting the game 😄

Dude, the planning of a new crew or army is always the best part.  I love list building.   Sometimes I gaze wistfully over the other side of the fence and wonder what my life would be like if I played Neverborn or Gremlins.  

Honestly, he should play whatever makes him happy.  If he likes Dreamer and other NB masters, he should play that faction.   Note that in a tournament setting it could be mutually beneficial to both of you if you both play Neverborn, as it would let you lean on each other and share out of keyword models and tech pieces with each other.   Also note that a lot of crew boxes come with way more models in the box than you will ever realistically field, giving your extra copies to each other will help both of your collections become more robust.   So contrary to stepping on eachother's toes, its just as likely you would have a symbiotic relationship within the faction.  

Finally, he could also give Guild a second look.  While not as much of a "magical" faction as arcanists, it is home to Sonnia who is one of the most iconic mages in Malifaux, and her title version slaps.   Sonnia is one of the blastiest magic users in the entire game, and Witch Hunters have access to a bunch of solid mage units, including Guild Mages who are really strong versatile pieces, Sanctioned Spellcasters who are cheap effective minions with easy access to fast, and Spelleaters from Cadmus who are surprisingly durable and tricky mages.   Outside of Sonnia's crew, Hoffman has a magical connection to machines so in a sense he is a technomancer (and he is also one of the most competitive masters in the entire game), and Lucius has some of that Neverborn appeal, as well as the whole, "law is magic" theme going on with his lawyers.   

EDIT: And while Nellie isn't a mage or magic themed... she does so much weird shit (especially her title version) that she feels like a mage.  

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

I think your friends are too worried about model competitive viability. Have them focus on aesthetics and gameplay, personal competitive viability will come with experience. A person is more likely to learn from their mistakes if they enjoy the crew more than if it is supposed to be competitive (in which case most go “why doesn’t X work for me!?!”).

I selected my first crew just off faction/crew aesthetics and the wyrd site master gameplay blurbs (Asami/Oni), and it remains my favorite crew after trying plenty of others. Kind of like a multiple-choice question, your first choice is usually the correct one (the sub-conscious knows what the conscious doesn’t).

 

 

[dannydb]

honestly 80-90% of masters are compeatively viable, and crew knowledge will generally beat crew power, though obviously crew power will have a factor for 2 equilly skilled opponents) 

 

Playstyle and liking the models is a huge factor in staying in the game to some degree so yer making sure you like what your playing is important 

If your wanting to try a crew before you buy, vassal might be worth a look which is a computer program allowing you to play online (essentially free table top simulater) obviously no where near as good as real thing but might be worth trying a couple of shortlisted crews out before you buy 

[Maniacal_cackle]

One suggestion I have for new players is to start with a core box plus another box.

This will give a good feel for the crew and if you want to expand or swap to a different crew.

The advice doesn't apply as well if you get huge shipping charges though.

[Azahul]

4 hours ago, Arko said:

@Azahul : Thanks for the Hamelin breakdown, so Hamelin is out too, because he mostly wanted to play Hamelin 2 (he loves the mini), so if he can't play "full rats" and has to add too many OOK and versatile, that is a no-no for him.

For what it's worth Hamelin1 has a Vintage model that can usually be purchased during Wyrd sales that is almost identical to Hamelin2 visually.

[Arko]

Hey guys, thanks for all your answers, I won't reply to you one by one as you all said a lot of things, but my "Magic" friend has finally made his mind up, and he is going to stick with the minis he loves the most, so Jakob Lynch 1 and 2 crew, and he is going to try to get the best out of them.

He would like to find a well rounded list for them now, with 1 or 2 versatile/OOK maximum, so I am going to ask questions in the 10 thunders sub-forum.

Thanks everyone for all the help you provided !