Limitation Special Upgrades

[Epitaphh]

Hey guys, My friend and I are new players, I’ve been playing McCabe and he’s been playing Yan Lo. Maybe my search-fu is lacking, but can I use multiple artifact upgrades on one model? It has the special limitation, but I can’t see to find whether that means that model can have only one special upgrade? Alternatively, can my friend put multiple reliquaries upgrades on the same model? Last game he had a komainu with Yan Lo’s, chiaki’s, and Izamu’s reliquary upgrades, as well as the regen upgrade from rezzers, so he was manipulative, armor 3, hard to kill, regen 2 with laugh off haha. We thought it was hilarious but probably not right. Can anyone point me to what we’re missing? Thanks!

[Adran]

Yes you can put multiple artifacts or reliqueys on a model. A model may only hire 1 upgrade, but can be given more during a game. 

The special limitation means it can't be hired. 

[Epitaphh]

Dang that’s crazy! Could have an armor 3 regen 3 komainu with hard to kill. New rule question that I’m not sure I need to make a new thread for, but how does take the hit work on a manipulative model that hasn’t activated? Does it still give a - flip to the targeting model?

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Short answer, the model using TTH benefits from its own Manipulative (if it has it). See FAQ 2.12. 

[Adran]

28 minutes ago, Epitaphh said:

Dang that’s crazy! Could have an armor 3 regen 3 komainu with hard to kill. New rule question that I’m not sure I need to make a new thread for, but how does take the hit work on a manipulative model that hasn’t activated? Does it still give a - flip to the targeting model?

No it does not. Using target switching abilities generally means you don't get any abilities that are " after targeting". 

( look at the faq for more details but the attacker didn't target the new defender, so even thought it's now the target it wasn't targeted). 

 

You can stack upgrades to some crazy levels, but often the best thing for the opponent to do is ignore that model and just score the points, (although it's a bit harder to ignore them when yan lo can obey them twice a turn...)

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

No it does not. Using target switching abilities generally means you don't get any abilities that are " after targeting". 

A Komainu w/ Chiaki's reliquary can benefit from Manipulative. The model with TTH on its stat card does not benefit from the original target's Manipulative, but it would benefit from its own Manipulative (if it has it) after it has become the new target. 

[Adran]

7 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

A Komainu w/ Chiaki's reliquary can benefit from Manipulative. The model with TTH on its stat card does not benefit from the original target's Manipulative, but it would benefit from its own Manipulative (if it has it) after it has become the new target. 

I would disagree

 The Faq says that the new model is not targeted, and does not benefit from any of its own abilities that resolve when targeted.  I don't think the fact that manipulative has a long term effect means it avoids those two issue. ( this might be because I found the easiest way to make the FAQ make sense is that I see a difference between the verb Target and the noun Target, and reading that way manipulative needs you to actively target, and using take the hit you don't actively target it). 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

I would disagree

 The Faq says that the new model is not targeted, and does not benefit from any of its own abilities that resolve when targeted.  I don't think the fact that manipulative has a long term effect means it avoids those two issue. ( this might be because I found the easiest way to make the FAQ make sense is that I see a difference between the verb Target and the noun Target, and reading that way manipulative needs you to actively target, and using take the hit you don't actively target it). 

Manipulative does not need a model to be actively targeted, it just needs the model to be the target. That's why manipulative is specifically called out as an ability that doesn't work if the initial target had it, because the attack action is no longer targeting it.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

I would disagree

 The Faq says that the new model is not targeted, and does not benefit from any of its own abilities that resolve when targeted.  I don't think the fact that manipulative has a long term effect means it avoids those two issue. ( this might be because I found the easiest way to make the FAQ make sense is that I see a difference between the verb Target and the noun Target, and reading that way manipulative needs you to actively target, and using take the hit you don't actively target it). 

The FAQ specifically calls out that Manipulative is different from “targeted” abilities like Terrifying…

Manipulative is not a long term effect, it resolves in Step 4 if a model is the target (passive target) of the action.