Some possible Yan Lo 2 nerfs...

[Maniacal_cackle]

It is no secret that I think Yan Lo 2 is very broken, so I'd like to see him nerfed.  However, it is a delicate one as he could easily be reduced to garbage. Most parts of his kit are pretty weak, but when you add them all up (plus super strong hole in the world, it gets a bit broken).

Here's some ideas for some nerf options.

Hit the tankiness

• Make his place only during friendly activations to eliminate the take the hit trick.
• Df 5, wp 6.

With his mobility and take the hit on the Komainu, he is plenty tanky. This is how I'd adjust that downward.

Hole in the world (reduced)

• Change Hole in the World to a new trigger (3 inch places instead of 6).

And honestly with just those two changes he'd probably be fine.

Could potentially throw in:

Hit card draw

• Reduce end of activation card draw to 1 card.

In effect this just makes him rely on Final Wishes or Whisper more, which is a significant tax.

Or for some funkier ideas.

Rework to be obey focused (1)

• Remove hole in the world
• Add mask to the suit
• Make the trigger friendly only
• Build in a tome and concealment ignore on friendly retainer minions

This makes him a bit more focused on obey, and opens up some friendly obey options.

Could potentially give another useful trigger like cleansing a condition.

Rework to be obey focused (2)

• Remove hole in the world
• Replace obey with Issue Command (but for ancestors, retainers, and models with reliquary upgrades)
• Make the focus trigger able to hit any friendly.
• Add a useful trigger like pulsing from the commanded model, condition removal, or a trigger to take the A New Guardian action if able.

What do you reckon?

I think Yan lo 2 is too strong, but primarily it is the strong kidnap strategy with hole in the world while Yan lo stats super safe that is a problem.

I think what's offered above gives ways to rework Yan lo while keeping him playable (although the last one potentially just turns him into Lucius but worse xD).

One last idea

• Could change twist reality to ancient words.
• Drop hole in the world, possibly do another trigger

This would be a tragic loss for ressers since he is our best answer to armor...

But opening up that sweet 2/4/5 damage track would open up new lines.

[Brilliance Laced Whiskey]

I think giving him a unique hole in the world that is only 3 inches instead of 6 is an absolute must.   Him being able to reliably place a model on the other side of the planet is just completely over the top.  3 inches would still be really good while keeping it similar to how he already is.

 

Reducing his potential card draw by 1 could also help.

 

I would actually rework the Komainu as well.  Either reduce the models movement by one or remove the +2 movement when an ancestor upgrade is attached.

 

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Wouldn’t changing Hole in the World to Glimpse the Void fix the kidnap issue while keeping the reposition aspect? 

I think that swapping to Glimpse, removing the tome from Lingering Voice, and dropping Komainu Mv to 3 or 4 would curb Yan2’s power without any drastic changes to how he plays. 

I think his defensive stats are mostly fine, they aren’t terribly different from Yan1 T3+ (especially if Komainu are slower), and you can always tech in Mv attacks (not terrible into Yan1 and a better tech pick with slower Komainu).

[DeadManTalking]

I'm on the other side of the fence here. I wont argue that Yan isnt good(potentially one of Rezzers best), but I don't think he's broken at all. I've had his crew torn apart easily by players that know how to tech into him and who they need to target. Shockwaves are a bane on his existence or any Mv targeting crews. The Take the Hit trick is good, but I've only gotten it off once against any opponent. He is so reliant on triggers that you either need to take a large cache which limits your hires and runs dry quickly, or get lucky and draw into the suits you need. Lord help you if he goes against something that passes out a lot of stunned. Again, not saying he is bad by any means, but I don't see the brokenness that you guys seem to see. I think he competes with other factions S tier masters.

[Paddywhack]

I wouldn't mess with the Komainu's stats really. It's Empty Vessel that needs the hit. That would help make Yan2 a lot easier to take down as well as reducing his movement potential. 

I don't have a problem with seeing Hole go away for something else, but I'd hate to see Yan2's flavor disappear with other changes. 

[DeadManTalking]

About the only way I'd be ok with a nerf for Yan2 is if Wyrd announced a massive overhaul where every faction was getting reworked to try and balance out the Masters.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

I wouldn't mess with the Komainu's stats really. It's Empty Vessel that needs the hit. That would help make Yan2 a lot easier to take down as well as reducing his movement potential. 

Changing Empty Vessel would also affect Gokudo. I’m not sure they are good enough to warrant getting hit as well. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think hitting Komainu mobility is also a potentially reasonable take (although then that's more errata that has to be done, more cards to be printed, etc). I agree changing Empty Vessel perhaps doesn't make as much sense as just changing their move.

I also agree the Take the Hit trick isn't really that relevant. Typically anyone who has played against Yan Lo a few times knows to go after the Komainu first, so Yan Lo's durability isn't really a factor anyway. Still, it could add a little bit more pressure to the crew and the defenses drop could make Yan Lo more vulnerable if the Komainu die.

I think if you hit Komainu mobility you possibly wouldn't have to hit anything on Yan Lo's card.

In double masters I think it is potentially reasonable to argue Yan Lo isn't the absolute top of the pack, but I feel he dominates pretty hard in singles (although unfortunately our tournament data isn't currently being processed so don't have the hard stats to back that up).

5 hours ago, DeadManTalking said:

I've had his crew torn apart easily by players that know how to tech into him and who they need to target. Shockwaves are a bane on his existence or any Mv targeting crews. The Take the Hit trick is good, but I've only gotten it off once against any opponent. He is so reliant on triggers that you either need to take a large cache which limits your hires and runs dry quickly, or get lucky and draw into the suits you need. Lord help you if he goes against something that passes out a lot of stunned. 

The mv targeting crews don't do much as the Komainu are stat 7+ against those. Move duels can be a danger, but I've not encountered anything with a big enough threat range to actually hit him with it if he's positioned well.

Stunned isn't an issue because Chiaki reliquary just makes him nearly immune to it.

People learning how to deal with him (target the Komainu) certainly makes a big difference, but also the Yan Lo player can adapt and learn to keep them safe. There aren't that many things that can hunt down AND kill the Komainu.

And yeah he does need a large cache of 5-7 stones, but luckily 43 stones is enough to hire a pretty amazing crew as his crew rocks and he has access to some other good options.

Although I dooooo tend to overestimate some of the crews I play... But I feel like there's no master in the game I can't beat with yan lo with a bit of practice.

[Adran]

Would just giving-1 mv to Yan los reliquay, or adding another suit to the guard reliquay trigger to force him to pay a stone to give out upgrades be enough to cut him back?

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

Would just giving-1 mv to Yan los reliquay, or adding another suit to the guard reliquay trigger to force him to pay a stone to give out upgrades be enough to cut him back?

You mean make it a double crow? Possibly would help, but often I'm so aggro with him that I don't stop to hand out a reliquary unless I hire chiaki. Sometimes I need to stop to do Kenshiros.

But by and large I just ignore the reliquaries. That's one less action I could be spending decimating the enemy crew!

I have had a game on like corner deployment where the highest card I drew was a 9 so then I did just hold back and use his activation to draw cards and attach a reliquary... but it isn't that common.

-1 move to his place would make a small difference for sure! Added with other things could be good.

[Maniacal_cackle]

The only things I use every game are the friendly obey to move the Komainu, the twist reality with hole in the world, and the weary road movement and card draw.

The rest of the kit does certainly add to his power but I don't view it as 'core' if that makes sense.

EDIT: On the back of his card. I of course use the Komainu's bonus action shenanigans xD

[Adran]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The only things I use every game are the friendly obey to move the Komainu, the twist reality with hole in the world, and the weary road movement and card draw.

The rest of the kit does certainly add to his power but I don't view it as 'core' if that makes sense.

EDIT: On the back of his card. I of course use the Komainu's bonus action shenanigans xD

That is all the actions except final wishes  ( and I assume most of the triggers on the actions you do use) and all the abilities apart from incorporeal if I understand what you are saying ( as well as basically everything on his relequay). 

Just to clarify, I was suggesting that one of the abilities on the upgrade was the holder has one less movement. I assume this would slow down the holder a bit, so just reduce the huge mobility. 

 

If you don't want to change the ' core kit' you're left with just making it less effective, so things like lowering the action stats, reducing the movement effects, or just making things harder to do. If I was going to add a suit requirement to the guard reliquay trigger, it probably wouldn't be a crow ( at least as a first place to try), because I don't want it to restrictive to use, and a double crow trigger is half as likely to be doable as a two suit trigger. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

24 minutes ago, Adran said:

That is all the actions except final wishes  ( and I assume most of the triggers on the actions you do use) and all the abilities apart from incorporeal if I understand what you are saying ( as well as basically everything on his relequay). 

Just to clarify, I was suggesting that one of the abilities on the upgrade was the holder has one less movement. I assume this would slow down the holder a bit, so just reduce the huge mobility. 

 

If you don't want to change the ' core kit' you're left with just making it less effective, so things like lowering the action stats, reducing the movement effects, or just making things harder to do. If I was going to add a suit requirement to the guard reliquay trigger, it probably wouldn't be a crow ( at least as a first place to try), because I don't want it to restrictive to use, and a double crow trigger is half as likely to be doable as a two suit trigger. 

Oh, the clarication about 1 less move on the komainu makes more sense xD

My point was more that changing the core kit should be the target (I.e., offensive obeys, focus trigger, or reliquary trigger don't seem as high a priority).

I just didn't initially understand xD

[Adran]

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, the clarication about 1 less move on the komainu makes more sense xD

My point was more that changing the core kit should be the target (I.e., offensive obeys, focus trigger, or reliquary trigger don't seem as high a priority).

I just didn't initially understand xD

I thought you were saying you didn't want to change the core kit ( at least the broad stroke, the fine details could change) 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

I thought you were saying you didn't want to change the core kit ( at least the broad stroke, the fine details could change) 

Oh sorry.

I think there's two ways to go about it.

Either you adjust the core kit downward (Aka, hole in the world gets reduced) or a whole rework (hole in the world gets eliminated and he gets other toys).

And then of course you can clean up other issues along the way xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

I was thinking earlier that typically when playing Yan Lo, it feels like the way to optimize his gameplay is to maximise the number of attacks he takes against enemy models.

But his fun card design is based around targeting friendly models.

So reworking him to be much more focused on targeting friendlies (even changing the reliquary to Yan Lo only being able to target a friendly rather than only target a model within 3") for example would be huge.

And again rework the triggers on his obey because currently it just doesn't line up for friendlies very well other than his minions.

Another angle would be to really embrace the minion theme and give him some more triggers relating to minion only, but then nerf other things to compensate.

[ShinChan]

• I would change "Hole in the World" for "Pulled Here and There" (Hole in the World in such a mobile master is just bananas)
• Df 5 (so he's a little bit more vulnerable and cannot just camp whenever he wants, also puts pressure on him and the Komainu for shockwaves, even if Incorporeal is just going to reduce most shockwaves to 1 damage)
• Make his place only during friendly activations (this is just mandatory)

And he's good to go. I don't think he needs to be toned down more than that honestly, and I don't even play him, just against him xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

• I would change "Hole in the World" for "Pulled Here and There" (Hole in the World in such a mobile master is just bananas)
• Df 5 (so he's a little bit more vulnerable and cannot just camp whenever he wants, also puts pressure on him and the Komainu for shockwaves, even if Incorporeal is just going to reduce most shockwaves to 1 damage)
• Make his place only during friendly activations (this is just mandatory)

And he's good to go. I don't think he needs to be toned down more than that honestly, and I don't even play him, just against him xD

One issue of course is that hole in the world is so game breakingingly good, that pulled here and there/knock aside sorta ones might see him be pretty mediocre.

Which is possibly a fine outcome anyway xD

But that's the sort of thing playtesting would fine tune of course.

[ShinChan]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

One issue of course is that hole in the world is so game breakingingly good, that pulled here and there/knock aside sorta ones might see him be pretty mediocre.

Which is possibly a fine outcome anyway xD

But that's the sort of thing playtesting would fine tune of course.

I agree. But 2/3/4 ignoring armor and incorporeal and targeting Df/Wp at will is quite good already. I think any of the standard reposition triggers could be perfectly fine there. I don't recall if there's a trigger that allows to push ignoring other models and/or terrain, but that could be interesting too without reaching the absurd levels of Hole in the World.

But my main point here is that I don't think that Yan Lo 2 is far from being balanced and even if I don't play him, I wouldn't like him to get TBB (The Bokor Bat)

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

I agree. But 2/3/4 ignoring armor and incorporeal and targeting Df/Wp at will is quite good already. I think any of the standard reposition triggers could be perfectly fine there. I don't recall if there's a trigger that allows to push ignoring other models and/or terrain, but that could be interesting too without reaching the absurd levels of Hole in the World.

But my main point here is that I don't think that Yan Lo 2 is far from being balanced and even if I don't play him, I wouldn't like him to get TBB (The Bokor Bat)

Yeah totally agree he shouldn't be nerfed too hard. Always sad when a master gets that (like Som'er... man bayou gets some raw deals 😛 ).

I think his attacks aren't quite master level AP without the triggers, but he does have the perk of free AP of movement.

So tough call!

[Maniacal_cackle]

I'm hearing some people think he isn't even that good in GG3, so I'll have to do some more testing to see if he is as good as I think xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, smashed some games with him pretty well.

I do feel like Yan Lo is our answer to Damian, so if Yan Lo gets nerfed we'll be in an awkward place with Arcanists (again). Although maybe McMourning 1 will get buffed

For me, with a power level target being the original masters, I'd still like to see Yan Lo toned down.

I've been building some lists for playing with the models I own (rather than borrowing Komainu), and finding that on paper Yan Lo is way weaker without the move 7 komainu. So there's an argument to try nerfing the Komainu first to take away their reliquary +2 move, and if that doesn't work to hit Yan Lo. But I think Wyrd prefers to hit things all in one go, in which case the safer bet would be to nerf Yan Lo directly, hopefully not throwing him into the dirt xD

[Paddywhack]

On 9/10/2022 at 3:08 PM, Maniacal_cackle said:

I've been building some lists for playing with the models I own (rather than borrowing Komainu), and finding that on paper Yan Lo is way weaker without the move 7 komainu. So there's an argument to try nerfing the Komainu first to take away their reliquary +2 move, and if that doesn't work to hit Yan Lo. But I think Wyrd prefers to hit things all in one go, in which case the safer bet would be to nerf Yan Lo directly, hopefully not throwing him into the dirt xD

That's still my go to. Remove Empty Vessel from Komainu and YL2 is suddenly a lot easier to get to. Might need a bit more than that too (drop Df or up cost). The only think on YL2 himself I could see is the trigger that is causing so much grief. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

That's still my go to. Remove Empty Vessel from Komainu and YL2 is suddenly a lot easier to get to. Might need a bit more than that too (drop Df or up cost). The only think on YL2 himself I could see is the trigger that is causing so much grief. 

I'll try some builds without komainu hopefully and see how it goes.

I quite like the idea of removing take the hit and empty vessel so each minion has something unique, but not sure if that'd make komainu garbage tier.

[Paddywhack]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I quite like the idea of removing take the hit and empty vessel so each minion has something unique, but not sure if that'd make komainu garbage tier.

They'd still have Df5 and Armor 2, so not sure I'd say garbage. Might need a little tweak to front of card. Ruthless or Unyielding maybe? Would help make them all a bit different. And lets face it, YL2 has no interest in Gokudo (sadly), but he needs retainers.