Unclean Influence

[James Dyson]

When Hamelin uses Unclean Influence effecting X Malifaux Rats, and the first rat chooses to use Tangle Together, what happens to the rest of the generated actions?

A- lost due to the rats being replaced into the Rat King, or 

B - the Rat King can now take X-1 actions, as the generated actions are carried over into the Rat King.

I can't find a clear definition of 'lasting game effects'.

[Adran]

I can't remember where previous discussion on the topic ended, but you are missing option C the rat king takes 1 action because the effects don't stack. ( I'm fairly sure the replace rules have changed since any previous discussion, but no idea I'd the change would affect the answer. ). 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Lasting game effects generated by models usually have a clause like “Until the End phase…” (ie, Challenge) and persist after effect resolution. I would say A, a lasting effect would be one that has been previously resolved.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Worth noting that under under the current replace rules all effects transfer over, not just lasting ones.

So the argument for stacking would be generate a move and an action on every rat.

Resolve all the moves.

Resolve the actions one at a time.

First rat bundles together.

You still have actions queued for rats B, C, D.

Pulses are instantaneous, so there's no checking if you already did any actions for the rat king. You generate four actions for four rats, and then you resolve four actions for four rats, regardless of what form they're in.

That's my understanding at least.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Note of course if you play in a meta with common sense rulings over RAW rulings, it would be pretty reasonable to ban this interaction.

The replace rules for multiple models have always been subject to a bit of abuse.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Effects that target/chose a model are the only ones transferred. Unclean influence effect doesn’t target/choose a model since it’s a pulse.

[Azahul]

3 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Effects that target/chose a model are the only ones transferred. Unclean influence effect doesn’t target/choose a model since it’s a pulse.

The counter argument I was given there was that "effects" never target models. I.e. Analyse Weakness transfers on a Replace, no one is in any doubt about that, but while the action "targets" the effect does not so... safest to just transfer all effects.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Seems odd to just allow all effects to transfer instead of restricting to effects that have "target" or "choose" in the text; there is at least room to say those targeted/chose a model. Really doesn't make sense for applying it to effects of actions that do not target, such as Area Effects. 

That interpretation goes on to ignore the lasting part and just implies that all effects are "Lasting Effects". RAW, Auras are the only Area Effect defined as a Lasting Effect. I think that kind of flies in the face of allowing pulse effects to transfer during replacement.

Edit: Pulses even say they have no game effect once resolved. Not really sure how one argues a Pulse effect is lasting.

[Azahul]

9 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Seems odd to just allow all effects to transfer instead of restricting to effects that have "target" or "choose" in the text; there is at least room to say those targeted/chose a model. Really doesn't make sense for applying it to effects of actions that do not target, such as Area Effects. 

That interpretation goes on to ignore the lasting part and just implies that all effects are "Lasting Effects". RAW, Auras are the only Area Effect defined as a Lasting Effect. I think that kind of flies in the face of allowing pulse effects to transfer during replacement.

Edit: Pulses even say they have no game effect once resolved. Not really sure how one argues a Pulse effect is lasting.

No one is arguing pulse effects are lasting. Replaces transfer all effects, not just lasting ones. The term "lasting effect" only comes up as part of a non-exhaustive list of all the different kinds of effect that transfer over.

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Seems odd to just allow all effects to transfer instead of restricting to effects that have "target" or "choose" in the text; there is at least room to say those targeted/chose a model. Really doesn't make sense for applying it to effects of actions that do not target, such as Area Effects. 

Unclean Influence says 'may', so in this instance you do have to choose them anyway..

 

11 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

That interpretation goes on to ignore the lasting part and just implies that all effects are "Lasting Effects". RAW, Auras are the only Area Effect defined as a Lasting Effect. I think that kind of flies in the face of allowing pulse effects to transfer during replacement.

As pointed out above, effects are what are transferred (including last game effects as one example).

Easier to understand cases would be if a model charges, dies to hazardous and replaces, it still gets an attack, right? (Though that one is slightly less clear cut cuz there is no choosing or targeting).

Or if a model dies and has a discard effect lingering on it, and replaces into a new model, it still discards.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

Transferring all effects is still ignoring the main clause in point 4, the new model becomes a target for effects that targeted or chose the original model. The “such as” just providing examples, not expanding what effects transfer.

The attack from a charge would definitely not transfer, and a discard effect would only transfer if the old model was targeted or chosen.

“May” for Unclean doesn’t cause the rat to become a target; a Pulse never targets. You are just given permission to not resolve the effect.

Edit: Saying that no effects target would make no effect transfer RAW other than effects that choose a model, so all effects transferring would still be wrong from a strict RAW perspective.

[Maniacal_cackle]

18 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Transferring all effects is still ignoring the main clause in point 4, the new model becomes a target for effects that targeted or chose the original model. The “such as” just providing examples, not expanding what effects transfer.

The attack from a charge would definitely not transfer, and a discard effect would only transfer if the old model was targeted or chosen.

“May” for Unclean doesn’t cause the rat to become a target; a Pulse never targets. You are just given permission to not resolve the effect.

Edit: Saying that no effects target would make no effect transfer RAW, so all effects transferring would still be wrong from a strict RAW perspective.

So for example if a model generates an aura and then replaces, that lasting game effect doesn't transfer because it didn't choose or target?

I think this interpretation will break more than it fixes.

[solkan]

I'd like to remind everyone that the Replace rules

Quote

If the new and original models belong to the same Crew, one new model becomes the target of any effects that targeted or chose any original models, such as Schemes, Leader designation, or lasting game effects. 

include the example of 'Leader designation' in the list of "effects".  

 

22 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Transferring all effects is still ignoring the main clause in point 4, the new model becomes a target for effects that targeted or chose the original model. The “such as” just providing examples, not expanding what effects transfer.

Do you need someone to tell you that you've got this completely backwards, in order to realize that you're wrong?

 

[solkan]

I'm happy to announce that it's only been about nine months since the last time someone expressed surprise about the Turbo Rat King", by the way.

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

32 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So for example if a model generates an aura and then replaces, that lasting game effect doesn't transfer because it didn't choose or target?

I think this interpretation will break more than it fixes.

That is a grey area, I’d still go in favor of not transferring since the original model was not a target or choice.

I’m not sure what it breaks though, how many models can generate an Aura from an action, replace themselves or be replaced by another model, and that interaction be a core function of the model? I’ve only found Ice/Metal Golem can generate an Aura and have the ability to be replaced, I don’t think it breaks them to not have the Aura persist.

28 minutes ago, solkan said:

I'd like to remind everyone that the Replace rules

include the example of 'Leader designation' in the list of "effects".  

 

Do you need someone to tell you that you've got this completely backwards, in order to realize that you're wrong?

 

The replace rule says effects that target or choose transfer and then provides examples. RAW was thrown as the reason why all effects transfer, and yet there is no RAW backing all effects transferring.

[trikk]

I think it does transfer and until it's faqed it's how it should be played. I think it's another loophole in Replace into/from multiple models but I can't find a rule argument against it.

[santaclaws01]

14 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

That is a grey area, I’d still go in favor of not transferring since the original model was not a target or choice.

I’m not sure what it breaks though, how many models can generate an Aura from an action, replace themselves or be replaced by another model, and that interaction be a core function of the model? I’ve only found Ice/Metal Golem can generate an Aura and have the ability to be replaced, I don’t think it breaks them to not have the Aura persist.

The replace rule says effects that target or choose transfer and then provides examples. RAW was thrown as the reason why all effects transfer, and yet there is no RAW backing all effects transferring.

Show me any effect in the game that actually targets or chooses a model and then we can go from there.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Show me any effect in the game that actually targets or chooses a model and then we can go from there.

Analyse weakness has an effect that targeted the model. The armour ignoring effect would clearly transfer during a replace. 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Show me any effect in the game that actually targets or chooses a model and then we can go from there.

I already agreed no effect targets (a model can be the target of an effect) or chooses (a model can be the chosen model of an effect) using absolute RAW, which would mean no effect transfers to the new model (pretty obviously not the intent). (4) Only says new model becomes the target; not x, y, z effects transfer to new model with it as the “target”. So I think there is a huge logical gap (and RAW gap) going from “transfer target of effects to new model” -> “no effects target/choose” -> all effects transfer to the new model”.

I think it makes more sense using RAW to go “no effects target” -> “transfer effects that were generated & resolved with a target/chosen model”.

[solkan]

43 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I already agreed no effect targets (a model can be the target of an effect) or chooses (a model can be the chosen model of an effect) using absolute RAW, which would mean no effect transfers to the new model (pretty obviously not the intent).

“RAW” (a.k.a. naive literalism) can go dig a ditch, as far as the rules are concerned, because “Leader designation” is given as one of the examples of “effects” that transfers.  

43 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

 

(4) Only says new model becomes the target; not x, y, z effects transfer to new model with it as the “target”. So I think there is a huge logical gap (and RAW gap) going from “transfer target of effects to new model” -> “no effects target/choose” -> all effects transfer to the new model”.

I think it makes more sense using RAW to go “no effects target” -> “transfer effects that were generated & resolved with a target/chosen model”.

See “Leader designation” (otherwise known as “I’m taking that horse dude from Ten Thunders as my leader, and his demise is going to work”.

 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Analyse weakness has an effect that targeted the model. The armour ignoring effect would clearly transfer during a replace. 

The effect didn't target any model. The action does, and the action applies an affect. If you want to go that route, then since it says "targeted" if you use TTH on analyze weakness then the effect won't transfer over. Hell you could even argue that if TTH was used to block analyze weakness on the replacing model, it would get replaced and now have the armor ignore effect on it because the model was targeted by the action.


 

 

2 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

So I think there is a huge logical gap (and RAW gap) going from “transfer target of effects to new model” -> “no effects target/choose” -> all effects transfer to the new model”.

I think it makes more sense using RAW to go “no effects target” -> “transfer effects that were generated & resolved with a target/chosen model”.

I think it's a huge logical leap to go "well this is clearly not worded in such a way that it is using the game term target" and say "so only this arbitrary list of effects transfer" and not "so any effect that is currently affecting a model transfers". Why would the effect of Move Along not transfer? Or Go Hog Wild? 

Not to mention that the inclusion of things that are also very clearly not effects, scheme choice and leader designation, shows that they're pretty much just trying to convey that the new model is considered to be the old model(s) in every way as far as the rest of the game is concerned, but there's no real rules way to phrase that.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Which goes back to what I said previously- I think if Wyrd tries to FAQ this by some trickery with choosing or targeting, it seems likely that they'll break another mechanic in the process.

[Azahul]

33 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Which goes back to what I said previously- I think if Wyrd tries to FAQ this by some trickery with choosing or targeting, it seems likely that they'll break another mechanic in the process.

So I guess we're about to find out if this is what was needed to catapult Hamelin1 into being a top tier Master? 

 

Outside of the absurd telegraphed shenanigans I think it's mainly a big lift in his tempo game. Getting a full Rat King activation on the turn the rats are summoned rather than a full turn later is markedly harder to disrupt. And it means his "Rats gain focus" trigger is finally relevant again...

[Maniacal_cackle]

11 minutes ago, Azahul said:

So I guess we're about to find out if this is what was needed to catapult Hamelin1 into being a top tier Master? 

 

Outside of the absurd telegraphed shenanigans I think it's mainly a big lift in his tempo game. Getting a full Rat King activation on the turn the rats are summoned rather than a full turn later is markedly harder to disrupt. And it means his "Rats gain focus" trigger is finally relevant again...

To me rules should generally be based on rules, not power level concerns. There's errata to handle power level issues.

[Azahul]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

To me rules should generally be based on rules, not power level concerns. There's errata to handle power level issues.

Oh I wasn't expressing power level concerns. It feels like a lot but I prefer to reserve judgement until I play with/against something at minimum.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

4 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

I think it's a huge logical leap to go "well this is clearly not worded in such a way that it is using the game term target" and say "so only this arbitrary list of effects transfer" and not "so any effect that is currently affecting a model transfers". Why would the effect of Move Along not transfer? Or Go Hog Wild? 
 

Those are both Area Effects, models never become a target of those. It seems like the way to go is either ignore wording in the replace rules to transfer all effects, or use a liberal definition of target and effect to follow the replace rules to a word. I’m in favor of the simplest solution involving adhering to the entire text of rules, it also appears many are not and favor more strict and complex rulings. OP can be the judge of how they would like to play.