New Titles Breakdown

[farmoar]

Hello there. Just wondering if anyone has put together a breakdown of how the New Titled Masters compare to their original card. Tried searching, but can't find anything.

Thanks!

[Adran]

I don't think anyone has put that together. There are several tactica where they have looked at the differences between the original and the title, but just one master at a time. 

I don't think there is any common ground to tie in the comparison across multiple masters, so it probably makes most sense to just write them one master at a time. 

[Azahul]

Rage Quit Wire I think did a two episode breakdown of all the originals and titles, but with the heavy disclaimer that they didn't have any experience with a good chunk of titles at time of recording so they're not necessarily all spot-on takes.

[farmoar]

19 hours ago, Adran said:

I don't think anyone has put that together. There are several tactica where they have looked at the differences between the original and the title, but just one master at a time. 

I don't think there is any common ground to tie in the comparison across multiple masters, so it probably makes most sense to just write them one master at a time. 

 

18 hours ago, Azahul said:

Rage Quit Wire I think did a two episode breakdown of all the originals and titles, but with the heavy disclaimer that they didn't have any experience with a good chunk of titles at time of recording so they're not necessarily all spot-on takes.

dang. was hoping there would at least be "playstyles" listed somewhere. that's a shame

[Math Mathonwy]

7 hours ago, farmoar said:

dang. was hoping there would at least be "playstyles" listed somewhere. that's a shame

Are there any specific Masters or even factions that you're interested in?

[dannydb]

one thing to consider is no one has changed keyword (other than levi) so the keyword functions in much the same way, a few of the master want more in keyword support now (there is a reason to take death marshals in lady J 2) but nothing has changed in that regard, 

[TimH]

3 hours ago, dannydb said:

one thing to consider is no one has changed keyword (other than levi) so the keyword functions in much the same way, a few of the master want more in keyword support now (there is a reason to take death marshals in lady J 2) but nothing has changed in that regard, 

Marcus also has a psuedo keyword change. Marcus 1 had the Chimera Keyword and the Beastmaster ability, while Marcus 2 only has the Chimera Keyword. Because of how the ability is worded it doesn't actually change the hiring pool for Marcus 2 but it does mean he has to pay the 1SS tax on certain beasts to include them in his list.

[Mindbadger]

3 hours ago, dannydb said:

one thing to consider is no one has changed keyword (other than levi) so the keyword functions in much the same way, a few of the master want more in keyword support now (there is a reason to take death marshals in lady J 2) but nothing has changed in that regard, 

I would disagree with this to a certain extent. A lot of the changes between original and title masters impact the way the keywords play a reasonable amount. For example, Dreamer 2 not being able to summon changes the way you have to play the keyword quite a lot.  The changes might mean you have to hire different models than you otherwise would, which impacts how a keyword plays quite a lot. Another example being Jedza. Her title forces less of a requirement on bubbling so you can play more of an effective, spread out game with Seeker than Jedza 1 would allow.

On topic, have you looked at some of the tier list videos on youtube that are going up at the moment Farmoar? They tend to have competitive players going over both the original and title masters in detail, so can give a reasonable (if opinionated) insight into how they might want to play and the differences.

[farmoar]

9 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Are there any specific Masters or even factions that you're interested in?

 

2 hours ago, Mindbadger said:

I would disagree with this to a certain extent. A lot of the changes between original and title masters impact the way the keywords play a reasonable amount. For example, Dreamer 2 not being able to summon changes the way you have to play the keyword quite a lot.  The changes might mean you have to hire different models than you otherwise would, which impacts how a keyword plays quite a lot. Another example being Jedza. Her title forces less of a requirement on bubbling so you can play more of an effective, spread out game with Seeker than Jedza 1 would allow.

On topic, have you looked at some of the tier list videos on youtube that are going up at the moment Farmoar? They tend to have competitive players going over both the original and title masters in detail, so can give a reasonable (if opinionated) insight into how they might want to play and the differences.

I played before Explorer's Society was fully fleshed out. Liked the idea behind Dreamer's ability to thin your own deck, Nekima's kill potential, Seamus and Yan Lo playing with powerful in and out-of-keyword strong models, respectively, and Sandeep's ability to summon toolbox minons.

Not sure how many of those playstyles still exist after the changes/titles/errata though...

[Adran]

1 hour ago, farmoar said:

 

I played before Explorer's Society was fully fleshed out. Liked the idea behind Dreamer's ability to thin your own deck, Nekima's kill potential, Seamus and Yan Lo playing with powerful in and out-of-keyword strong models, respectively, and Sandeep's ability to summon toolbox minons.

Not sure how many of those playstyles still exist after the changes/titles/errata though...

I don't recall any playstyle being stopped by an errata. ( except the extreme lucid dreams where you tried to remove all weak and moderates from your deck  and I'm not sure that was a valid play style anyway, more just a possibility). 

Adding titles doesn't prevent any of the pre-title stuff from still working.

[dannydb]

Sandeep summoning toolbox minions also is effected by summons not being able to score schemes 

 

Yer i guess some summoners losing ability to summoning and some non summonerd gaining summon changes how you build crews but doesnt change keyword 

 

Hoffman 2 doesnt remove the fact hes leading a bunch of armoured power tokens consuming models (its just how they get tokens) 

[Da Git]

On 6/11/2022 at 7:05 AM, farmoar said:

Hello there. Just wondering if anyone has put together a breakdown of how the New Titled Masters compare to their original card. Tried searching, but can't find anything.

Thanks!

Goonhammer is currently doing an introduction to the titles. So far they've done Guild & Ressers.

https://www.goonhammer.com/category/other-games/malifaux/

Dunno if that helps

[Edek]

@dannydb also a few keywords simply started to work after the release of titles. From bayou's point of view, Tri-Chi became a powerful keyword all of a sudden  

[farmoar]

On 6/12/2022 at 5:26 PM, Adran said:

I don't recall any playstyle being stopped by an errata. ( except the extreme lucid dreams where you tried to remove all weak and moderates from your deck  and I'm not sure that was a valid play style anyway, more just a possibility). 

Adding titles doesn't prevent any of the pre-title stuff from still working.

damn. that would have been right up my alley. I know he could do it before I stopped playing (because I remember reading about the hypothetically-best outcome, and was looking at picking up the pieces needed), but didn't know he changed. A bunch of cards aren't loading in my app, so I can't see how they changed it...

 

 

On 6/13/2022 at 5:00 AM, dannydb said:

Sandeep summoning toolbox minions also is effected by summons not being able to score schemes 

wow, that seems like a big hit to him (and dedicated summoners in general)

 

On 6/13/2022 at 7:18 AM, Da Git said:

Goonhammer is currently doing an introduction to the titles. So far they've done Guild & Ressers.

https://www.goonhammer.com/category/other-games/malifaux/

Dunno if that helps

helps enough! Thanks

[dannydb]

Yer sandeep got hit hard a lot between focus being capped at 2, summoners being nurfed, replace being nurfed (not longer score vendetta off it) kandara being nurfed so you dont have any reliable card draw now 

 

[Cats Laughing]

15 hours ago, farmoar said:

wow, that seems like a big hit to him (and dedicated summoners in general)

FWIW, it's important to read the changes to summoning/actual summoning rules in main rules and GG2 rules regarding summoning, since it's not a blanket "summoned models can't scheme" and the nuance is very important to summoners and playing the game.

 

For reference here's the core rules change from the April 2021 errata:

“If an effect would Summon a model and does not require an Upgrade to be Attached, the Summoned model instead gains a Summon token. Models with Summon tokens are treated as having a Summon Upgrade for all effects that specifically reference Summon Upgrades. On the turn they are Summoned, Summoned models cannot take the Interact Action and are ignored for friendly Schemes and Strategies.”

And here's the GG2 Rules regarding summoned models:

"Summoned Models In addition to being ignored for friendly Schemes and Strategies and not taking the Interact Action on the Turn they enter play, models with a Summon Upgrade cannot take the Interact Action to affect Strategy Markers in any way."

 

Note that GG2 includes schemes that may specifically exclude models with summoned upgrades (ie: all summoned models, given the core rule change to add Summon Tokens) or require that you pick the model at the beginning of the game (which therefore excludes summoned models that don't exist at that time), so many schemes also exclude summons even ignoring the "prohibition on interacting on the turn summoned".

 

Note also that GG2 is the current tourney season and at some point will be replaced with GG3, which may change the rules prohibiting summons from interacting with Strategy markers and may change up the Strategies/Schemes to make summons able to do them.

 

Also note that there are various ways to work around these rules.  For instance Akaname, which may be summoned, can use a non-interact action to drop a scheme marker.  As another example, Tengu, which may be summoned, can use an action to make another friendly model interact. As this isn't the Tengu interacting (as long as they aren't targeting themselves) they can do this on the turn summoned.  There are other 'work arounds' but those are examples I'm most familiar with.  Some summoners are more hit by this than others.

 

Also note that Summons might be ignored for friendly schemes/strategies on the turn summoned, but an enemy can use your summon for Detonate Charges on the turn you summon them or can kill them to flip a Turf War marker on the turn summoned.  The 'interact with strategy markers' prohibition in GG2 doesn't affect their ability to carry the lodestone (on turns after the turn summoned) or kill enemy models to flip Turf War markers (on turns after the turn summoned) or engage enemies to stop them from interacting.

 

This was a longish summary, so you'll want to read closely the above core/GG2 rules, and the various specific schemes & strategies' rules, and the various model cards to see how the new rules actually affect summoners.  For some summoners it might be a simple "summons don't scheme" and for others it'll be "there are ways..."

[Azahul]

Honestly at this point my most desired core rules errata is to clean up the summon rules. Too many different effects with different durations at this point, and scattering them across both core rules and Gaining Ground documents is needlessly convoluted.

Just consolidating it all down to "summoned models are ignored for friendly strategies" would be an improvement. It would mean we don't have the current weird loophole where summons can do Leylines but are locked out of the other strats entirely. Consistency would be a big improvement. 

It would make summons better for schemes, which could potentially be an issue. They could go further if that is the case and just say "summoned models are ignored for strategies and schemes". It would remove the vulnerability summoned models represent to allow enemies to score, but take them out of the scoring equation entirely. Not necessarily elegant but so much easier to track than the current mess.

I would hope the latter option isn't necessary, since it reduces summons to nearly pure attrition models (they are able to Interact though, so can still drop scheme markers at least). But still preferable to the current mess.