Trash Cannon, Discard and Swift Action

[Math Mathonwy]

Ophelia2 can let a Kin use her guns but they must discard the Upgrade after the Action. Trash Cannon has a Swift Action Trigger that lets you take the Action again. Can you, or do you discard the Upgrade first?

[DuBlanck]

[By my read of the rule book, I think]

"Actions Generated By Effects: the new Action is always resolved after the previous Action is completely resolved, including any “After Resolving” effects, but before any other new Action can be taken"

Ophelia2's "Gimme That Back" would pop before Swift Action starts the second Trash Cannon action, meaning that there is no '"this Action" to take, it cannot be declared, so the chain stops/action fails at that point.

Edit: Immediate rules lawyer addition - under "Stat Cards" the cards are described as listing the actions a model can take (+ general actions), but the language is minorly different for Upgrades. I think it still tracks that the Upgrade disappears and you no longer can take the action because the Upgrade is no longer part of your suite.

[Maniacal_cackle]

You're allowed to take actions that aren't on your card if something instructs you to (see the Lost Memory action on Noxious).

So... conceivably you could take the action even after you lose it from your card.

[DuBlanck]

31 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Lost Memory action on Noxious

I think that circumvents the limitation by specifically supplying and naming the action as part of an ability, but in the process of typing that out I recpgnise there's not much more concrete in one case than the other.

[Adran]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

You're allowed to take actions that aren't on your card if something instructs you to (see the Lost Memory action on Noxious).

So... conceivably you could take the action even after you lose it from your card.

I think you need something to specify that you're allowed to take the action without it being on your card. I don't think swift action would allow you to take an action that you no longer had access to. 

[solkan]

One of the things that the rules didn't improve over the previous edition is making explicit that removing an upgrade undoes all of the "This model gains" effects of the upgrade.  When a model gains an action, it enters the list of "Actions are special Attacks or maneuvers that a model can take when it Activates."  When that's undone, it leaves that list.

Suppose the model with Trash Cannon was dealing with a model with Butterfly Jump 2" away who decided to choose violence and enter base contact instead of running away.  The mere core rulebook rule of Engagement saying "Engaged models cannot take Actions" is going to trump the trigger's "Take this Action again" when the action in question is a .  (The model with Butterfly Jump could move somewhere it wouldn't be a valid target, but that would just be making the action fail.  

Since that's the case, why would Swift Action be any stronger versus the model losing the upgrade?

Onslaught, Swift Action, and I think there are a few other similar triggers, aren't giving the model any special permission to take the action.  They're merely instructing the model to take the action, presuming it still may.  And the removal of a granting upgrade is going to invalidate that.