Sheesh! The spiritwalker is bonkers!

[Regelridderen]

6 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Right - but what I'm saying is Yan2 doesn't necessarily need a nerf (well, maybe a small one), but the Komainu does (well, Empty Vessel).

Ashigaru are fine, but they are nothing compared to an Empty Vessel Komainu with Yan2 tagging along. Try Yan2 without any Komainu and I don't think he'll seem as broken. Even Gokudo, which really are never taken with Yan2, are not as good a replacement as Komainu. Empty Vessel giving Mv+2 and + to all duels really takes Yan2 over the edge. 
 

To me it’s more the combination of handing out focus with flame breath.

[OracleToronto]

The Koimanu are super good (especially for their cost) but the fact you NEED to hire multiple keyword minions in your Crew for it to function does mean they are a form of tax on the crew (although one you don't really mind paying). I still say that their average stats mean that even with all the positive flips they will still miss often (especially if your opponent can cheat to beat with a higher stat)

The real way to beat Yan2 is to get stunned on him ... so much so if I even get a wiff of stunned in an opponent's crew I'm getting Chiaki's Reliquary on Yan turn 1 ... which I hate doing cause the crew really doesn't need her in it aside for that purpose)

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

To me it’s more the combination of handing out focus with flame breath.

That's just icing on the cake for me.  If that was all they got from him, it wouldn't be so bad, but add it all up and it's a ridiculous 5-7ss model(s). Really I think of the Komainu as Yan2's totem - at least one is an auto-include every time. 

[DeadManTalking]

I have now played about 5 games with Yan, some of them in a tournament, and while I do think he is very strong I also think there are plenty of ways to counter him. Especially if your opponent has any clue what to expect from his crew. If I announce Yan2 in my play group now my opponents immediately take anti-armor tech, Shockwave attacks, irreducible damage, and stuns. Now to be fair a lot of that was already in a lot of the lists I face regularly anyways but now my opponents are aware of the need for it against Yan2. What this typically means is Yan is going to get about 2 turns of speedy movement before my opponent hard focuses the dogs off the board. Even that's not 100% guaranteed if my opponent has a way of alphaing across the board with something designed to kill them. In the tournament I faced a TT player who has several more games of Yan2 under his belt and he took Youko2 and McCabe2, McCabe came all the way across the board by turn 2 and had killed 3 of my 4 minions. To be fair, that was only my second game with Yan2 so I only had a base knowledge of what they do. My point is though, Yan2 is very good, potentially even one of if not the best Rezzer Master in my opinion. But he is a far cry from broken.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think he gets way too much value on his card. He never, or rarely ever has to spend any of his own AP on movement. He gets free value on card draw and marker removal without having to spend an action. He gets the ability to just give out his upgrades at vast range and with little to no downside. Hole in the World is a bonkers strong trigger on any model and especially one that can SS for the suit, and or just make sure it's there, and that's before we ever talk about combos the abilities he has with other abilities. I don't dislike any one thing on him, but the combination of abilities COUPLED with the fact that he has arguably one of the strongest keywords means he really does need a whack with the bat in my opinion. Conversely, if he is a reasonable power level, a significant amount of keywords, and masters in the game, need a SERIOUS buff to be relatively close to him in viability.

[DeadManTalking]

34 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Conversely, if he is a reasonable power level, a significant amount of keywords, and masters in the game, need a SERIOUS buff to be relatively close to him in viability.

I think this is closer to the issue at heart. I can't speak for anyone else but I know that my meta tends to look for the dumbest most broken combos and runs them until either someone complains or they get bored of winning all the time. Currently TT and Arcanists are trouncing our tournament scene and nobody has come up with an answer yet. And our TT is not using Yan2 or any of his keyword. I think he is very strong, and may appear broken in Metas that aren't always running hyper competitive. But currently in my meta Yan2 just let's me put my foot on the stage with our top competitors.

[Maniacal_cackle]

My opponents keep trying to kill the dogs with McCabe 2 and then discover they get outmaneuvered by 21 inches of movement in a single activation xD

The number of things that can catch AND kill the komainu is not that many.

[Regelridderen]

19 hours ago, DeadManTalking said:

I have now played about 5 games with Yan, some of them in a tournament, and while I do think he is very strong I also think there are plenty of ways to counter him. Especially if your opponent has any clue what to expect from his crew. If I announce Yan2 in my play group now my opponents immediately take anti-armor tech, Shockwave attacks, irreducible damage, and stuns. Now to be fair a lot of that was already in a lot of the lists I face regularly anyways but now my opponents are aware of the need for it against Yan2. What this typically means is Yan is going to get about 2 turns of speedy movement before my opponent hard focuses the dogs off the board. Even that's not 100% guaranteed if my opponent has a way of alphaing across the board with something designed to kill them. In the tournament I faced a TT player who has several more games of Yan2 under his belt and he took Youko2 and McCabe2, McCabe came all the way across the board by turn 2 and had killed 3 of my 4 minions. To be fair, that was only my second game with Yan2 so I only had a base knowledge of what they do. My point is though, Yan2 is very good, potentially even one of if not the best Rezzer Master in my opinion. But he is a far cry from broken.

It’s not like the Tomb Delver is any less action efficient. And that’s really the point isn’t it? Pre-titles, balance was very much dependent on no model getting more than three actions, and Focus engines like Shamans and Tuckett got hit with nerf bats to keep them in line. Yet, with titles we suddenly get models with 10 actions worth of efficiency.

Rules-breaking is less about balance than it is whether models adhere to the same design principles. Playing Yan Lo, you’re not really playing the same game as the original masters. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I wouldn't characterize it that no master got more than 3. Good masters got or get 4AP worth of value in some way each turn. Bonus actions are as important or more important than regular actions. If your bonus action as a master isn't good and usable all the time you need something else to make up the difference, ala Kirai1. But yes I would agree that once you get significantly beyond that the value gets too good, to my mind anyway.

[Jinn]

14 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

It’s not like the Tomb Delver is any less action efficient. And that’s really the point isn’t it? Pre-titles, balance was very much dependent on no model getting more than three actions, and Focus engines like Shamans and Tuckett got hit with nerf bats to keep them in line. Yet, with titles we suddenly get models with 10 actions worth of efficiency.

Rules-breaking is less about balance than it is whether models adhere to the same design principles. Playing Yan Lo, you’re not really playing the same game as the original masters. 

That is not a very useful way of looking at it IMO, Misaki2 is not very popular compared to 1 and she has the same focused giving mechanic as Yan but it can target her big things. All of rezzers gets to hand out 5-8ish focused on turn 1 if they want to (to models like the Dead Rider and Vally), spamming out focused isn't necessarily overpowered.

The free mobility is way more of what makes Yan Lo 2 too good. If he had to spend AP to keep up no one would think that getting focused on a 6 cost minion with stat 5 attacks was a problem. I still don't think that's the problem tbh, the killing power of a Komainu isn't very good even with the focused spam. The infinite mobility + scheming, and on demand hole in the world/stunned is what makes Spiritwalker bonkers.